Yuli’s Interview with Shoshana Cardin. August 11, 2004.

Yuli: As I said to you, I hope you understand me. I’ve presented to you a wide variety of questions which are interesting to me. It’s up to you which questions you’ll pick up and will be read to answer, which questions are closer to your heart and to your mind. After that we’ll just have a dialogue. You see, it’s like a talk of old friends I would say… Are you ready to talk?

Shoshana: I’m ready to talk.

Yuli: Very good. We are starting.

 

Shoshana: Let me get my papers with all the questions.

Yuli: Okay.

Shoshana: There are several books which you should read. One of them is called: Soviet Jewry in the 1980s by Robert Freedman, a Baltimore Professor, a professor of Europe and the Soviet Union, a Sovietologist. He’s written several books. He wrote another book, Soviet Jewry in the Decisive Decade 1971-1980 and then he wrote a second book which was in the 80’s. He hasn’t written a third book that I know of. It has some very interesting information on the Jackson amendment, why it was passed, what effect it had both on the Congress and the American Jewish community and obviously the effect it had on Soviet politics. His books are very interesting and well-written.

Yuli: I will find them.

Shoshana: If you can’t get it, I can get you a copy and send it to you.

Yuli: Once again, what is the name of the book?

Shoshana: Soviet Jewry in the 1980’s, and the subtitle is, The Politics of anti-Semitism and Emigration and the Dynamics of Re-settlement.

Yuli: I don’t have this book. I will find it.

Shoshana: If not, let me know and I’ll get it for you.

Yuli: It would be very humane from your side.

Shoshana: He’s been to the Soviet Union many, many times. He’s a well-known and well-respected scholar in his field. He’s also, a Peace Now individual but that’s OK.
Questions, you had personal questions.

Yuli: First of all, personal questions. I would like to understand what kind of genes and situations created Shoshana Cardin. I would like to know when and where you were born, in which kind of family you were born.

Shoshana: My father was born in Riga and he emigrated to Palestine in 1920 after the war. He left because he was then turning 18 and he didn’t want to go into the Russian army, so he left home. He left Riga. He didn’t have any money. He worked and walked his way until he got to Palestine.

Yuli: What was his name?

Shoshana: Sraiah Shoubin. My Mother’s family came from Bessarabia in 1913.

Yuli: What is Bessarabia?

Shoshana: Part of eastern Rumania.

Yuli: Did she also, come to Palestine?

Shoshana: Because there was a pogrom, the whole family moved. It was my Grandfather, my Grandmother and six children.

Yuli: A pogrom in Bessarabia?

Shoshana: Yes.

Yuli: Your parents met in Palestine?

Shoshana: Yes. They married in 1925. My Mother came in 1913 as a child. They lived various places in the country. I was born in 1926.

Yuli: Can you give me an exact date?

Shoshana: October 10th was when I was born.

Yuli: October 10th 1926. You are very young really.

Shoshana: Really – very young.

Yuli: Older than I thought…

Shoshana: I’m older than you.

Yuli: A bit…

Shoshana: (Laughing)

Yuli: Not so much…

Shoshana: At any rate, my Father was a real Zionist. He came from a Zionist home. My Mother, obviously… Her family moved to Eretz Yisrael because it was so important. They were both Zionists.

Yuli: Does it mean that you were born in Israel, in Palestine?

Shoshana: Yes. I was born in the Hadassah clinic in Tel Aviv.

Yuli: Very interesting.

Shoshana: My Mother took sick after I was born. She was a sickly woman. Evidently, I also, took sick. My Father received advice to go to a country that had more advanced medical facilities. My Mother’s two older sisters had already left Palestine and had gone to New York. My Father wrote to them and to his brothers-in-law to see if he could get a loan to buy tickets to sail to the United States. He did get a loan from one of his brothers-in-law and we left in 1927 for the United States. I was little over a year old. We are arrived in the United States. We didn’t go to New York to Ellis Island. They already passed a law limiting the number of people who could come from the Middle East as immigrants. You had to be a specialist. My Father claimed to be a poultry specialist, a chicken specialist. Truthfully, he wasn’t. He had worked around chickens and he knew enough about the names of the different kinds and the diseases they get. He passed inspection when we landed in Connecticut.

Yuli: You settled down in Connecticut?

Shoshana: No. We left Connecticut after a couple of days and went to New York, stayed in New York two or three months. He couldn’t get a job that was good for him. Then we came to Baltimore where we heard there was a position for a Hebrew teacher. My Father was very good at languages.

Yuli: He knew Hebrew before he came to Palestine?

Shoshana: Yes, he studied it in Riga. He loved the language.

Yuli: He was a real Zionist. You were growing up in quite a Zionist atmosphere.

Shoshana: Absolutely. The first organizations they joined when they came to Baltimore to find friends because they had no family, they didn’t know anybody, was to go to the Poalei Zion group, a Histadrut group. I was raised in a Zionist household and my parents’ friends were all Zionists.

Yuli: What kind of Zionist atmosphere was at home? What kind of literature did you have at home? By the way, did you have brothers and sisters?

Shoshana: I have a younger brother.

Yuli: What kind of literature did you have at home? What kind of environment? Friends? What were the Jewish elements in the house?

Shoshana: The house was very Jewish because the languages spoken were Yiddish and Hebrew. The friends always spoke in Yiddish or Hebrew. They never spoke in English – not until later on… They didn’t speak initially until later on because most of them didn’t know English well….

Yuli: What was your first language at home?

Shoshana: Hebrew.

Yuli: (laughing) You still speak Hebrew?

Shoshana: I used to speak Hebrew and it was Sephardic Hebrew, not Ashkenazi. Sephardic in the sense that it had the Hebrew accent from Palestine which was not at that time Ashkenazi. I spoke with an Israeli accent.

Yuli: Literature at home. What did you read when you were a child?

Shoshana: When I was a child, I went to afternoon Hebrew school. I remember the last book I read in Hebrew was by Daniel Deronda. It was the only novel I can remember reading fully in Hebrew bli nekudot (Yuli’s note: without vowels). I was the valedictorian (Yuli’s note: gives the speech after graduation) for the Hebrew school when I graduated. I delivered the speech in Hebrew.

Yuli: If you were chosen to deliver the speech, you were the best student?

Shoshana: Yes.

Yuli: I see. When did you begin to feel that you should become active and what attracted you?

Shoshana: I was active in my Habonim youth group.

Yuli: What did you do?

Shoshana: We held different parades. We educated other youngsters in Zionism for the Yishuv. It was still the Yishuv. It wasn’t Midinat Yisrael. We had schlichim who taught us dances, taught us the language, help us understand what the problems were, what the difficulties were. I think it was 1941. (or 1940) One of the male members and I went on the radio. We had a radio program on Sunday morning where we talked about Jews and Zionism.

Yuli: (laughing) You were 15?

Shoshana: I was very good.

Yuli: I suppose so…

Shoshana: When I was young, I was very good… Then I got older…

Yuli: (laughing) We got experience but we lose our aspirations…

Shoshana: I don’t know… I’m teasing…

Yuli: Where did you study high education?

Shoshana: I went to Johns Hopkins University for 21/2 years and then I graduated from UCLA.

Yuli: What did you study there?

Shoshana: English because that was a language I wanted to master and History.

Yuli: Did you make a break in your Zionist activities when you were a student as most of the people did?

Shoshana: No. I didn’t make a break in Baltimore because the Habonim group survived even though many of the young men went off to the war. I didn’t make a break there because I met a young group of Zionists although they were closer to communism than Zionism but at least they were Zionists. Then I joined a dance theater. One of the instructors had come to teach Israeli dances. I maintained the year and a half that I stayed there.

Yuli: And you danced Israeli dances?

Shoshana: Yes – definitely. I even have photographs. He taught us various Hebrew dances that were more sophisticated than what I learned a s a child.

Yuli: I see… I never knew that you knew Hebrew dances… What happened after you graduated?

Shoshana: After I graduated college, I came back to Baltimore. Then I wasn’t super active in Zionist activities but I contributed to Zionist causes. My parents were still active in Zionist activities. I became a school teacher and taught school for four and a half years. Then I married and began to raise my family. I was always involved in some way because my Mother was a member of Naamat. She made me a member of Naamat. I used to go with her to Naamat meetings.

Yuli: I see… Naamat is a women’s organization. It somehow links with Hadassah?

Shoshana: No. Hadassah is different. Naamat is a women’s organization that started in Palestine. Hadassah is an American organization. Naamat now has chapters throughout the world. I think it’s the largest women’s group.

Yuli: Is the main purpose of this group to educate women to make them equal and so on?

Shoshana: It’s not that kind… 1. The main purpose was one to be certain that the mothers and babies received proper health care. 2. There was day care for the Mothers. 3. The most interesting thing is we would raise money so that certain mothers who had numerous children could get a week off and go to a special camp. Someone else would take care of the children and the women would go to a special camp to rest and relax and develop energy to go back home.

Yuli: Is it world-wide?

Shoshana: Now, it’s world-wide.

Yuli: Then it was in Palestine?

Shoshana: Right.

Yuli: I see. You became a member of Naamat at about age 25?

Shoshana: or even earlier. I became a member of Hadassah also. We were two different organizations with two different missions.

Yuli: Hadassah is especially medical care?

Shoshana: Right.

Yuli: They support here and in other places as well special Hadassah hospitals?

Shoshana: There’s only one and that’s in Jerusalem.

Yuli: It’s the best one I think. It’s the best one. When I had trouble and needed surgery, Israeli hospitals said I should do it in two stages, one stage and then a second stage. Only in America do they do it in one stage. I came to Hadassah to Professor Podeh and he said: “one stage.” I said only in America is the surgery performed in one stage… He said: “Here is America. Hadassah is America.”

Shoshana: Exactly.

Yuli: You were involved in both organizations. At what stage were you attracted to the cause of Soviet Jewry?

Shoshana: Neither one.. I, also, was a member of our Federation, a contributor to our Federation. I found out what was happening with Soviet Jewry and also, through my Zionist friends from my youth groups who weren’t youths anymore and neither was I…. who were active. There was one in Baltimore and I have to give you his name because he deserves credit. His name is Sol Goldstein and his wife Jean. From the very beginning, they were very active for Soviet Jewry. He would call me up and we’d go to lectures, and we’d go to marches. In 1971, we went to protest in Washington. Over the years, he kept me informed and he kept me involved. Baltimore is a very Zionist community. There was also, another key figure in Baltimore, Fabian Kolker.

Yuli: Was he a member of an organization?

Shoshana: They were both individualists. Kolker’s family sent clothing every year to the Soviet Union. They collected clothing from all over the city. They sent bundles and bundles of clothing. They began doing that in the early 50s. He went to visit Jews in the Soviet Union several times. He, himself, was a major force in Baltimore for encouraging people to participate – to send money, to send clothes, to go visit. He wasn’t part of any organization. Sol Goldstein was part of the Federation and he did things through the Federation and through our Zionist groups. We have a very strong Zionist organization here called The Baltimore Zionist District.

Yuli: Can you tell me the main purpose of Federations? I understand that in America, everything is part of a Federation.

Shoshana: I hope not everything but close to… The main purpose was to develop a community out of the many Jews living in a geographical area and enable them to benefit from overall planning and fundraising so that instead of each organization or each synagogue or each hospital going out by itself to raise money for itself, they would pool their resources. There would be one campaign and everyone would benefit from that campaign. There would be one set of planners. Everything that was to be done to improve the community would be thought through by a representative group of the community and done with intelligence rather than haphazard. The purpose is a very good purpose and it still exists. It’s to develop a community.

Yuli: Communities always needs attention. That’s why it always needs funds and plans. We are facing the same problem at the moment. We need a community here. We need good local communities here. Can you tell me approximately when you first touched the issue of Soviet Jewry?

Shoshana: I had relatives in the Soviet Union.

Yuli: Still in Riga?

Shoshana: In Riga, only one. In Moscow, in the Ukraine and somewhere else I don’t remember…

Yuli: Did you maintain contact with them?

Shoshana: Yes… They wrote to my Father regularly and he would translate their letters for me. He would write to them regularly. He received photographs. After the war, as well…

Yuli: After the Second World War as well?

Shoshana: Yes.

Yuli: Did they describe honestly their situation?

Shoshana: They described it in code. A lot of my uncles, my father’s older brother was sent to Siberia for five years because he was teaching Hebrew.

Yuli: In which year?

Shoshana: I don’t remember… It had to be after 1960…

Yuli: Before 1970?

Shoshana: Definitely.

Yuli: He was somewhere [in the] ’50s.

Shoshana: Yes. He taught Hebrew and he was sent to Siberia for five years…

Yuli: You were almost always in the Russian field….

Shoshana: Yuli, I knew what was going on… As a matter of fact, I have a cousin who now lives in Haifa who made aliya about four or five years ago – who is the daughter of my Father’s sister, I believe. She was married to a Russian Jew who was in the Soviet army and who was a highly decorated official in the Soviet army. They have one daughter. The daughter made aliya first. My cousin then made aliya. She’s my age. She lives in Haifa if you wanted to talk to her.

Yuli: I think I will…

Shoshana: I knew all along what was happening…

Yuli: Your activities for Soviet Jewry began in 1971 or earlier?

Shoshana: Not for Soviet Jewry specifically…

Yuli: Soviet Jewry specifically in 1971?

Shoshana: Right.

Yuli: Where and how did it happen and in what organizational framework?

Shoshana: The organizational framework was the Baltimore Jewish Council, an organization that tried to fuel the political education and awareness in Baltimore.

Yuli: When you say Jewish Council, how does it relate to Federation? Was it part of it or separate?

Shoshana: It was part of Federation.

Yuli: It was not a specific Council for Soviet Jewry?

Shoshana: No, not at that time… Baltimore has never had that…

Yuli: What kind of Council was it? What was its responsibility and why did it occupy itself with Soviet Jewry?

Shoshana: The Council was responsible for legislation in Maryland that affected Jews, for Jewish-Christian relations, for educating non-Jews about Israel and taking them on trips to Israel and for working together with groups in Washington to persuade Congress to do certain things…

Yuli: Did this include a professional staff?

Shoshana: Yes, it’s a large professional staff and a number of volunteers… It’s professionally run…

Yuli: Were you involved in activities in this Council?

Shoshana: Yes. I became involved in activities in the Council actually in the 60s on other issues…

Yuli: You were a professional or a volunteer?

Shoshana: Always as a volunteer…

Yuli: I see… This Council in 1971 began to educate Baltimore Jews about the situation in the Soviet Union?

Shoshana: It was actually happening across the country by then because the grassroots Soviet Jewry movement began in the 60s with the Union of Councils for Soviet Jewry and Student Struggle for Soviet Jewry..

Yuli: 1964.

Shoshana: Right. That’s when there was a national roof organization put together to study that issue and to lobby American Jewry for that issue and it grew until 1971 when they had to form a separate organization.

Yuli: National Conference for Soviet Jewry?

Shoshana: Right.

Yuli: What you’re saying is that the grass roots who pushed the establishment to create a national organization of the establishment.

Shoshana: that’s right.

Yuli: It’s interesting to hear from you. I’m sure Enid Wurtman will be very glad to hear it.

Shoshana: Yes, she was very involved. I’m sure she will be glad to hear it!

Yuli: She was very involved… Federation and the Council were establishment organizations.

Shoshana: Right.

Yuli: From what sources were you getting information on the situation in the Soviet Union?

Shoshana: At that point, we were getting it from the national umbrella organization.

Yuli: The national umbrella organization was getting it from Lishkat Hakesher.

Shoshana: Primarily from Lishkat Hakesher and those students and people being sent to meet with refuseniks and Soviet Jews.

Yuli: You were already were sending people at that time to the Soviet Union?

Shoshana: There were college students who were going to the Soviet Union because there were some groups who were very involved.

Yuli: Do you mean that there was a student exchange?

Shoshana: Students were sent for visits. Think of the visits you had with American college students.

Yuli: Who paid their expenses?

Shoshana: The organization.

Yuli: Federation?

Shoshana: Usually not Federation. That was too early… It was usually NACRAC – National Jewish Community Relations Council.

Yuli: Is that NACRAC part of advocacy?

Shoshana: It is advocacy and the people there were Al Chernin, and Abe Bayer and they were pushing this… At JDC, it was Ralph Goldman. He’s still alive. You should talk to him

Yuli: Who defined the strategy? I mean what you should do.. what you shouldn’t do…how you you should do it… how you explain people, especially to grass roots what is dangerous and so on?

Shoshana: No one really defined it. Each group did what they wanted to do. There was no coordination – not until 1971. Each group did what it believed… The Student Struggle believed in protests, to be vocal and visible. The sophisticated community, like NACRAC thought we should act carefully and program who did what and when. Other grassroots groups did what they wanted to do such as a Fabian Kolker did what he wanted to do when he wanted to do it… It was really not organized.

Yuli: National Conference was meant to be a coordinating body for the American agenda on Soviet Jewry.

Shoshana: Yes.

Yuli: When did you join National Conference for Soviet Jewry?

Shoshana: I don’t remember… It was later.

Yuli: Before you were there… I understand that from 1971 you were involved and even earlier than that…

Shoshana: I was involved in Federation and the Baltimore Jewish Council but not at the national levels. I was involved in Israel Bonds and other things but not Soviet Jewry.

Yuli: How did your activities develop after 1971 with your life?

Shoshana: I was Chairman of the Women’s Campaign in Baltimore which meant I knew what we are raising money for and so we did discuss Soviet Jewry. In 1973, I became the President of the Women’s Division of the Federation in Baltimore. I began to go to national conferences – to the GA in which the issue of Soviet Jewry was discussed. It was discussed differently because then Soviet Jews were coming out. The discussion was how do we house them and pay for them.

Yuli: What’s GA?

Shoshana: The General Assembly of United Jewish Communities.

Yuli: What is happening in 1973 and 1974 with you?

Shoshana: In 1973-1974, I’m involved in the local community in several organizations and still involved with Israel Bonds but not with Soviet Jewry.

Yuli: When did you get involved in Soviet Jewry?

Shoshana: 1983.

Yuli: It was a very difficult year.

Shoshana: I was in the Soviet Union in 1982.

Yuli: Who were you with?

Shoshana: My son, just the two of us. I wanted to see what was going on because I was interested.

Yuli: It was a bold step.

Shoshana: I was in Helsinki for a conference – a medical conference. Since I knew I would be in Helsinki, I asked my husband if he wanted to go to Russia. He didn’t want to so I asked my son to come with me. He was a college student. He said fine. We went to St. Petersberg and to Moscow.

Yuli: Did you meet with me then?

Shoshana: In 1989. I met with you in 1989. That’s when I first met you.

Yuli: It’s my impression as well. I don’t remember that we have met in Moscow..
You were in Leningrad and Moscow during a very difficult time. Immigration was almost zero.

Shoshana: It was a very difficult time. We were watched and shadowed all the time – all the way… It was an interesting experience obviously, a frightening one… That’s when I realized I had to do more to get involved.

Yuli: Do you remember who you visited?

Shoshana: I don’t think I visited.. I didn’t want to endanger my son.

Yuli: You just visited the Soviet Union to see from inside and to get a general impression?

Shoshana: Exactly.

Yuli: Did you meet any officials?

Shoshana: No. I tried to be an ordinary citizen.

Yuli: I see… What happened after that? You returned from the Soviet Union in 1983…

Shoshana: I realized that we would have to 1.push seriously our government each time they met with the Soviet government to “let our people go” because that was our slogan then. 2. to begin to educate American Jewry as to why they should become involved in a more serious way.

Yuli: I think American Jewry was already very seriously involved by 1983.

Shoshana: Some of it…

Yuli: To widen the circle.

Shoshana: Right.

Yuli: Did you join the National Conference for Soviet Jewry in 1983?

Shoshana: I didn’t join.. I attended a conference. You don’t really join.. If they invite you to be a member… I didn’t become a member until 1987 because I had some personal difficulties here. My husband was in difficulty.

Yuli: Did you attend the international meetings of the World Conference for Soviet Jewry in 1976 and 1981?

Shoshana: I did in 1981. That wasn’t important. It didn’t make a big difference. I was not an important person. I was just someone… It wasn’t until I became President of the Councils of Jewish Federations. It was the umbrella organization of every Federation. Every Federation belonged to it. It no longer exists. It’s now part of United Jewish Communities – UJC. At that time, it was independent.

Yuli: When did you become the President of National conference for Soviet Jewry?

Shoshana: 1988. Morris Abram asked me to be President in 1987 and I couldn’t do it. I asked him to please wait and stay for another year and I would do it in 1988. I was already working with him and involved because he began taking me to Washington to meet with Secretary Shultz and and others and work on Soviet Jewry so that they would know who I am.

Yuli: From which time did you take part in meetings with the American administration?

Shoshana: 1987

Yuli: When Mr. Reagan was planning to go to Russia in 1988, you were fully involved already in meeting with the administration, right….

Shoshana: Yes

Yuli: How did you work?

Shoshana: I would meet with Ambassador Shifter.

Yuli: Richard Shifter.

Shoshana: He was very, very helpful. He would give me a list of names. We would give him a list of names we had based on our information either from the Lishka or other sources and see to it that there was a request that so many by specific names be permitted to emigrate.
I began the discussion that Morris Abram began – was to have separate visas for individuals who wanted to go to the United States and those who wanted to go to Israel because I believe that it was wrong to come out on an Israeli visa, drop out in Vienna or Ladispole and go to the United States.

Yuli: It was really so.

Shoshana: It was wrong.

Yuli: It was wrong, of course. It endangered the whole process.

Shoshana: I have to tell you that it was not a popular opinion. I fought literally with the organized community because they said freedom on choice which is something very important in the United States.

Yuli: Freedom of choice when you are on freed ground…not inside the Soviet Union.

Shoshana: I said I have freedom of choice and my choice is not to give money to those who are coming to the United States on an Israeli visa. That’s also, freedom of choice. It was not a popular concept. It wasn’t until 1987 or 1988, maybe 1988 that Abe Foxman of ADL… I made my position known very clearly. Abe Foxman invited me to address his national board because he believed the way I believed. He had lived in a displaced persons camp after the war for three years in order to get to the United States. He believed that if you want to come to the United States, you apply to the United States. The problem was there wasn’t a diplomatic vehicle. The United States would not permit or did not enable its embassy to issue visas. We had to convince the Soviets that it was OK to issue visas if the United States asked for them. We had to convince the United States that it was OK and that we should have a direct channel. Very difficult argument. I went to ADL’s national meeting and I made my case. After my case, the board voted to support that position. They were the first national organization to support the position of Israeli visas – you go to Israel; US visas – you wait for the United States.

Yuli: Do you apply to the United States?

Shoshana: Absolutely. It was important that 1. We establish in the United States government the ability to issue American visas. 2. Flights – the Soviet Union had to let American planes land in Moscow or have Soviet planes take the people right to New York. We wanted direct Moscow-New York flights.

Yuli: I thought there were direct flights before.

Shoshana: Not for refugees.

Yuli: I see. How did it develop further? I have heard that in 1989 that America closed its doors to doors to emigration except within certain frameworks.

Shoshana: That’s correct.

Yuli: When did it happen?

Shoshana: It happened in 1989.

Yuli: How did it develop and who influenced the decision?

Shoshana: There was a concern about too many coming to the United States and who would fund them and support them and how would the Federations take care of them because when they came in as refugees, the Fderations which took care of them agreed that they will never become dependent of the State for money. When we recognized the numbers would be huge numbers, or we believed they were…a no name committee initiated by Mark Talisman. He was the Congrssional aide who wrote the Jackson-Vanick amendment. Mark Talisman, Max Fischer, myself…

Yuli: In what capacity were you?

Shoshana: Chairman of National Conference… Mandel Berman, Bill Berman who was President of the Councils of Jewish Federations. The four of us and the head of immigration services of the US government, and a representative from the State Department.

Yuli: Who was from the State Department?

Shoshana: Ivan Feller. We met and he suggested that out of the 120,000 refugees world-wide which the United States committed to enter each year, we were getting a larger share than we should and he wanted to limit it to 25,000.

Yuli: Who wanted to limit it to 25,000?

Shoshana: Ivan Feller, the head of the immigration services because it was his responsibility to see who the 120,000 were, where they came from and to allocated places in a fair fashion. I said “no; 25,000 is too few but 40,000 was acceptable out of the 120,000. After some discussion, we agreed. By the way, someone is writing a book on this subject also. They informed us that yes it would be 40,000. We did not tell anyone for several years. That’s why it was called the no-name committee and basically we weren’t going to tell anyone ever…as some things remain best unsaid… However, about three years later at a meeting in which everyone was flush with success from the aliya, Max Fischer told the story.

Yuli: I see. Who ultimately took a decision on a governmental level?

Shoshana: Ivan Feller, the head of Immigration and Naturalization Services.

Yuli: I see. If this decision had been made even earlier, it would have been better…but earlier no one pushed for it. I have heard that Lishkat Hakesher was advocating this case.

Shoshana: Lishkat Hakesher wanted everyone to go there. I was accused of being Lishkat Hakesher’s pawn because I agreed with this procedure. Others in Chicago, for example, said that’s not fair, they have freedom to come. They came with the same restrictions as others because the immigration rules were changed. You have to be a first degree relative. You can no longer be the third aunt or uncle or something…

Yuli: No refugees or still refugees?

Shoshana: All refugees.

Yuli: Only refugees with first degree relatives.. Lishkat Hakesher also, advocated it in 1989 or earlier?

Shoshana: They advocated it earlier but I could not convince and would not have been able to convince our American organizations to go along with that which is why in 1989 we decided it had to be done and we did it quietly without telling anybody.

Yuli: Was there any interest on the side of certain American organizations to increase the part of Jewish emigration to the United States.

Shoshana: Oh yes. Union of Councils wanted to increase it as much as possible and a group in Chicago.

Yuli: Increase Jewish emigration to America.

Shoshana: That’s correct. They believe in freedom of choice and if they had the freedom to choose which we believe in the United States and they choose the country, United States, then they ought to come here.

Yuli: On a level of national moral field it’s OK. There were some kinds of institutional interests to increase a little bit the quantity of Jews in America. What was behind the curtain?

Shoshana: Nothing. They didn’t understand by the way which only a few of us did that the more Jews who went to Israel, the better it would be for the Palestinian- Israeli issue. Shamir wanted them all. He called those who didn’t come to Israel noshrim which was also, a very serious battle here. The fact is that there were Americans, not that they believed we needed more in the United States. They really believed it was fair, (because don’t forget that this was after the Lebanese incursion) that it was fair to bring them here because then they wouldn’t have to go into the army and they wouldn’t have to struggle after struggling so long in the Soviet Union. They had all sorts of wonderful reasons that really didn’t materialize.

Yuli: I have heard also, the argument that if you will not allow these Jews to come to America, they will stay in the Soviet Union and perish.

Shoshana: That was an argument but it was ludicrous.

Yuli: Ridiculous, of course.

Shoshana: That’s why I say that it wasn’t until and I can’t remember but I think it was 1988 that I was able to get an organization, any organization to say that if they come out on Israeli visas, they go to Israel, if they come out on American visas or if they want to go to the United States, they apply to the United States and they come out on American visas.

Yuli: I see. When the Jews began to come to the United States and they had so little Jewishness in them, they had a passport of Jews, ethnic origin of Jews but no more than that…

Shoshana: That’s right. They didn’t want to join Jewish organizations.

Yuli: It depends on the community. We have a nice strong Soviet Jewry organization here, a Russian Jewry organization. It’s excellent, does good work, takes care of its people. It depends on the community. We brought them in because we were able to mobilize those who came in the 70s.

Yuli: I see.

Shoshana: Remember we had a large influx in the 70s.

Yuli: 1973 primarily.

Shoshana: It lasted until 1977. In Baltimore they came in 1976 and 1977.

Yuli: I see. You were satisfied with them, more or less…

Shoshana: The first group yes. It was the second group that had more non-Jews in it, that came out as Jews but they really weren’t… The group that became the mafia in Brooklyn…

Yuli: My point is that the only way that you can guarantee that people will stay Jewish and contribute to the Jewish people – in Israel.

Shoshana: It has nothing to do with being Jewish. It’s a Jewish mafia which has to do with money and protection and coming from the Soviet Union. It has nothing to do with being Jewish.

Yuli: I understand. When the Sharansky trial was on the agenda, in 1978, were you very much involved in this trial?

Shoshana: Yes but not at the national level.

Yuli: Did the trial have influence on American Jewry?

Shoshana: A lot of prayers… A lot of vigils… Absolutely. I think it was in 1984 that I invited his wife to come and speak at out GA, the General Assembly of the Councils of Jewish Federations so that she could attract people to become involved, writing letters and speaking to their Congressional representatives to get Sharansky out of jail. We were able to do all of that.

Yuli: I see. What was the policy of National Conference since you took over vis-a-vie to what it’s necessary to do with the Soviet Union, with Jews in the Soviet Union besides this issue of nehira-aliya.

Shoshana: There was a quiet battle annually about the Jackson-Vanik amendment.

Yuli: Annually?

Shoshana: Almost…

Yuli: You were discussing if it is positive or negative?

Shoshana: There was the American Jewish Congress who wanted to waive it…

Yuli: I see. The discussion was if the Soviet Union was up to its obligations…

Shoshana: That’s right. That came up every few years as it has come up recently again to waive it and we did in 92 to get a waiver based on their fulfilling their commitments and the President having the right to initiate MFN responsibilities if they didn’t do what they were supposed to. I had a meeting, I can’t remember the year but I think it was 1989, in New York with Edgar Bronfman whom you know, Simcha Dinitz, Mendel Kaplan and myself and the head of ADM (large agricultural firm which was exporting food to the Soviet Union – Archer Daniels Midland). I met with the head of it. This was a very lovely dinner. I didn’t know what the purpose of it was. The purpose proved to be a request. Mendel Kaplan was then the head of the Jewish Agency, a volunteer leader. Simcha Dinitz was the Chairman of the Executive. I don’t know what my position was at the time. At any rate, the dinner was a request to remove and rescind the Jackson-Vanick amendment. Without even talking to the others because we didn’t know what the subject was, I said: “I’m sorry, we’re not ready… Every now and then I made a decision because it had to be made then without the Executive Committee. Most of the time, decisions were made in concert with my Executive Committee because I didn’t want to operate alone. In this case, I didn’t have a choice and I said: “No, I don’t trust yet the way everything will be concluded the way it should be concluded. It had to be before the Soviet Empire collapsed. It had to be in ’90.

Yuli: In 1991, the Soviet Union collapsed.

Shoshana: I said we can’t do that because we’re not sure the numbers will remain what they are because we already had the first wave of aliya. I’m not cerain they won’t change the rules. I just didn’t have confidence because Moscow said yes and Birobijhan said no or Irkutsk said no. It didn’t all work out well. The man became very annoyed and Edgar Bronfman was very unhappy. Simcha Dinitz said no, he would not introduce this to the Jewish Agency. Mendel agreed that we would not ask for a waiver and we left.

Yuli: Edgar Bronfman wanted it to be waived.

Shoshana: Yes. He wanted it to be rescinded, to be removed completely. The agricultural industry needed a level playing field and the Soviet Union was cooperating and therefore, it should be removed.

Yuli: There were different stages of détente and Cold War – all the time it was changing… Americans withdrew their troops from Vietnam in 1974. The Helsinki process began. Soviets invaded Afghanistan in 1979. Another Cold War began and there was always tension about Korea and so on. How did you correlate your policies with these ups and downs in terms of the international atmosphere or you had straightforward tasks and you implemented them?

Shoshana: I had straightforward responsibility and purpose and we focused on that.

Yuli: Did you have a think-tank or brainstorm group to make decisions and correlate your decisions or adjust your decision with Israeli’s approach?

Shoshana: Yes, we did. We had an executive committee at the Conference. We, also, had representatives of the Lishka who would come and speak with us.

Yuli: Inside National Conference?

Shoshana: Oh yes. We sometimes agreed. We sometimes disagreed.

Yuli: For instance, on which questions did you not agree?

Shoshana: They wanted all of those who left the Soviet Union to go to Israel. They didn’t want any to come to the United States. Shamir was angry when we worked out an arrangement for some came to the United States. Before they went as noshrim. The United States government was very unhappy. That’s another reason we negotiated a number because the United States was upset because the Italian government was upset that so many Jews were left in Ladispole and Italy was upset. They told the United States. The United States had to then quickly gear up to remove them from Italy and they weren’t geared to do that kind of work at that pace. That created an international problem. We wanted to resolve the international problem. Israel wanted them to go there, of course. The Jewish Agency was ineffective in convincing lots of them to go there. The majority who were in Ladispole came to the United States. Shamir was angry about that. The Lishka told us. There were a few other things which came up. At the moment I don’t remember…. There were times we disagreed. There were times when we agreed and when I agreed someone on the American side said: “you”re just a tool of the Israeli government.” I knew I was doing the right thing. Israel didn’t like what I was doing and some of the American organizations, some of them didn’t like what I was doing. I knew I was right. As long as both of them didn’t like it, I was right.

Yuli: I see. I would like to clarify one point. I understand that you together with the Israelis were trying to define a quota of people who would go to America. It was yet in the times of Ladispole and Vienna and camps of immigrants there. When exactly did Americans define the quota to America?

Shoshana: I have a problem using the word quota. The reason is that it is an allocation of spaces around the world who are deemed legitimate refugees who are permitted to enter the United States under that status. You can’t come into the United States under several different groups – status. Refugees get the most compensation, assistance, and funding. It wasn’t a matter of quota. It was a matter of the United States was very upset with the numbers they were taking from Ladispole that they hadn’t planned to take and they would challenge them as refugees. HIAS would have to defend them as refugees. This was becoming a very costly and difficult and disagreeable process. That’s when we went and determined a legitimate, fair number of the 120,000 allocated each year. I think it was fair.

Yuli: 120,000?

Shoshana: Only 120,000 come into this country

Yuli: All in all?

Shoshana: From the whole world.

Yuli: I see.. From the whole world to the United States.

Shoshana: 750,000 or more come as immigrants to the United States on an annual basis.

Yuli: 120,000 as refugees. Out of this 120,000, how many Jews?

Shoshana: We settled on 40,000.

Yuli: When did this happen?

Shoshana: I would say 1989 but I’m not sure…

Yuli: There was a second stage as you put yourself when you decided those who want to go to America shouldn’t do it on Israeli visas. They should apply directly to the American Embassy and fly directly to the United States within the framework of these numbers. When did this happen?

Shoshana: The United States initiated it at the end of 1989 or beginning of 1990.

Yuli: I know that in 1990 when almost 200,000 came to Israel, I know there was already a quota of 40-45,000.

Shoshana: It was probably 1989.

Yuli: The time break between the first decision to limit immigration to the United States and the second decision to enable direct flights to America…

Shoshana: Yuli… They were linked. We could not limit the number if the United States did not give them immediate visa access. They were linked together. It wasn’t one, then the other… The American visa had to be available for those 40,000 who were coming without going through Ladispole or Vienna or someplace else.

Yuli: There were already tens of thousands of people in Ladispole and Vienna.

Shoshana: They didn’t come under that number. It was after that was cleaned up. After that was cleaned up, there were direct flights from Moscow to New York.

Yuli: I see. Cleaning up of Ladispole and Vienna was above the number of 40,000 a year?

Shoshana: Yes. It was before that number.

Yuli: First, you cleaned up the international problem and after that you defined the problem of exit from the Soviet Union.

Shoshana: Yes.

Yuli: Now, I see. A couple of common questions. What kind of image did the Soviet Union have in the United States in the 70s and 80s? Was it fearful? Was it mighty? Was it disintegrating? What?

Shoshana: The evil empire was fearful. We didn’t trust them. We had movies that made either fools or villains of all the Russians. Cartoons.. It was bad, very bad…

Yuli: As the free world, did you have feeling fear of this empire?

Shoshana: I think in the beginning of the 70s and early 80s, we did but after a while, I had no fear. There were Americans who would not have gone to visit anybody or gone to the Soviet Empire because they were afraid. They were afraid they’d never come back.

Yuli: The Soviet Union from inside was looking completely different than it looked from outside. Lishkat Hakesher was always afraid of the Soviet Union because of us primarily and because it could have a very negative influence on Israel. America is a superpower. There was competition between two superpowers in the world.

Shoshana: Right. The Jewish people in the Soviet Union were pawns in this game. That’s what was. We knew that the Soviet Union supported Arab states. Israel could only look to the United States for assistance. If the Soviet Union became stronger, it would be more dangerous for Israel. If the Soviet Union really had the weapons they said they had, it would be really dangerous for the United States. Those of us at the national level who were paying attention were aware of the facts and the realities as opposed to the myths but the average Americans were very much afraid of Russia and the Russians.

Yuli: Activities of American organizations for helping Soviet Jewry was somehow corresponding to the common policies of the American government because of the Cold War and because the Soviet Union was a great competitor of the United States to help Jews get out of this country and to embarrass it before the whole world for their human rights violations?

Shoshana: Yes, of course, that was part of it.

Yuli: There was a positive look from the American administration on all your activities.

Shoshana: Yes. Definitely…

Yuli: You have found an open door there and advocacy. Technically, you should educate American administration about many issues inside of the Soviet Union?

Shoshana: I think so. I don’t think the time has come to stop that. The National Conference is still working in the Ukraine where we have incidents, in Kagastan, in Georgia. There is still a need to maintain relationships with the government and explain to them Jewish policies and Jewish religion are not anti-thetical to their government, not dangerous for their government.

Yuli: Do you remember in 1989 when I only came, there was a meeting of the Jewish Agency and Kaplan demanded to close the National Conference for Soviet jewry saying it’s already over, we have solved all the problems. We were talking together and we decided it was too early. It’s still too early from your point of view now?

Shoshana: I can tell in 1992, the Aliya and Klita Committee of the Jewish Agency presented a budget for aliya and I was chairing the Soviet Jewry component. I will never forget this… Saul Berger who was then the treasurer stood up and said, “ we don’t need this anymore. It’s free. They can come and go when they want to. We don’t need to look at aliya. We ought to change what the Agency is doing. Aliya is not going to be a problem anymore for Israel. I stood up and said, “I don’t know what you’re talking about or what you’re thinking of in the future. Aliya is a very component. There are Jews throughout the world who will need that assistance. It’s a little to think aliya is over and therefore, you can do something else. They looked at me like I had lost my mind. Of course, everything was settled. We had 450,000 who came out of the Soviet Union. We need more were coming. Therefore, close down the aliya department. People are so shortsighted, Yuli. They can’t look in the future and recognize what could happen.

Yuli: Some people only look at the budget – how to save parts of it in order to spend in other places… I see. Shoshana, how would you define Jewish identity in the widest terms. In the Soviet Union, Israel, America and Europe, there are different definitions. Where are the common threads of all of this?

Shoshana: It’s not monolithic in America. I can’t define Jewish identity. That’s a question we’re wrestling with now. There are Jews here who are cultural Jews. There are Jews here who are secular humanists. They are cultural but secular humanists. There are Jews here who believe here it’s strictly ethnicity, no religion. There are Jews who believe it’s a faith and if it’s not a religion, it’s not Jewish. We are referring in this country right now how to accept and whom to accept as Jews in a legitimate fashion because the freedom which is wonderful in this country as it is in Israel, the freedom to determine for oneself who is Jewish and what I meant by Jewish identity enables fractious groups to do that. I have to tell you that I can’t give you a definition.

Yuli: Do you have your own feelings?

Shoshana: For me, I cannot conceive of Judaism without the Torah, without the Tanach and without the teaching of our prophets and our Rabbis.

Yuli: What stream of Judaism?

Shoshana: I did not grow up in a stream of Judaism. I grew up in a Zionist Jewish house. We went to shule and the shule we went to was orthodox because that was the one nearby. We drove on Shabbat. If necessary, we went to a store on Shabbat after services, after 12 oclock. My father didn’t you were orthodox, conservative or reform. He said you have to know the teachings of the Torah, you have to understand the Tanach in toto. You have to understand the teachings of our Rabbis and our scholars. You have to appreciate the richness of our Hebrew language. That was it. I didn’t know from streams to be perfectly honest. I felt that to be really Jewish, Jewish identity meant Jewish knowledge, respect and love for Jewish culture and teachings and our moral teachings. My identity starts with the ten commandments and the teaching of the Torah – that’s my Jewish identity. I had belonged to the Conservative movement but I can’t say that’s where my Jewish roots began. They didn’t. They began with love of the teachings and the language. Hebrew is very important.

Yuli: I see. It’s developed only properly here in Israel.

Shoshana: It developed to a more religious state since I married and the children went to Day School.

Yuli: I have seen really that Jewish identity intuitive understanding of our common destiny.

Shoshana: I don’t think we can define it anymore.

Yuli: It’s a civilization.

Shoshana: It’s always been a civilization. Mordechai Kaplan called it a civilization. I agree with that but then we have to define civilization.

Yuli: Civilization is a wider definition than nationality. It includes cultural codes, history, writings and so on.

Shoshana: That’s what I believe. I don’t believe it’s a nationality. I believe it’s a civilization.

Yuli: Shoshana, can you name 10-15 people who contributed the most from your point of view to the Zionist movement and to aliya from the former Soviet Union.

Shoshana: Starting with my parents…

Yuli: By the way, you didn’t mention your Mother’s name.

Shoshana: My Mother’s name was Chana. Her maiden name was Barbalot… The next influence was a shaliach in the 30s who came here to the Habonim group; Dr. Lewis Kaplan, Morris Abram.

Yuli: Was Morris Abram the head of Federation?

Shoshana: He was the head of the Conference of Presidents and then the head of National Conference on Soviet Jewry.

Yuli: He was the first President of National Conference on Soviet Jewry.

Shoshana: He wasn’t the first but he was the most outstanding. After Morris Abram, I guess Ambassador Shifter himself. In a way, Yitzchak Shamir, Simcha Dinitz, Mendel Kaplan (set up special project on Soviet Jewry and aliya)… I guess that’s about it in terms of influencing and encouraging me. Abe Foxman because he had the courage to say they should go to Israel. He invited me to speak to his board so that they could make that decision because he agreed with my position and he needed someone from the outside to convince his board. I knew what he was doing. He was using me to get the decisions that he wanted. That’s beside the point. He had the right decisions as far as I was concerned. He encouraged me. The Lubavicher Rebbi also, encouraged me. I met him in 1988. He said to me you think your work is finished but your work with Soviet Jewry is not over. You must continue!!!

Yuli: He had an outstanding personality with magnetism, with presence, with influence… He penetrated the soul of the person he was speaking to?

Shoshana: Absolutely.

Yuli: Oh my G-d. did he know you before?

Shoshana: I didn’t think he really knew who I was. I only met him twice. He said you think your work is done and it is not… He gave me blessings, wished me well, and told me to continue working…

Yuli: He was an outstanding personality.

Shoshana: An outstanding personality. A remarkable man, absolutely remarkable.

Yuli: Who else?

Shoshana: I’m trying to think who really, really influenced me. Actually, in a way, it was George Shultz his personality, but his really true feelings about the ability of Jews to leave. He really cared. He was a very sensitive, caring individual. He took risks that others weren’t ready to… He even had the first seder there. If he took risks, I felt that I had to continue.

Yuli: Not Kissinger?

Shoshana: No.

Yuli: Kissinger was trying to show the State’s interests were most important for him.

Shoshana: Not Kissinger.

Yuli: He was against Jackson-Vanick as well.

Shoshana: He was representing the government and he did his job representing the government.

Yuli: He was is the same position as Shultz.

Shoshana: He wasn’t the same kind of person.

Yuli: I’m coming to one of the last questions. Why do you think American Jewry was so effective, so efficient, and so wise for our case and were incapable of doing so for Jews in the Second World War who subsequently perished in Europe.

Shoshana: I was too young to make decisions then. It seems to me that the Jews who succeeded and were established here still were outside the main social stream and main political stream. They were afraid that if they spoke out or spoke up that they would lose positions or standing in their community. There were Jews who by the way did go to the government – ask Roosevelt to do things and the Congress to do things… Too few in number… They were not politically…1:29:34 They were the religious leaders. The Rabbis – Rabbi Wise and others who really said something must be done, something can be done but the majority of the American Jewish community was not ready. Yes – they were Zionists who had a rally in New York. There were some rallies But they were nor important enough… There was no television then so you couldn’t tell how big the rallies were or how important they were. The sense was that the average American Jew was afraid to speak up. The reason that I know that is that my Father, an immigrant, wrote letters to the Sun papers and his letters had to do more with the Arabs, the Palestinian situation, Arab-Israeli because that’s what it was. I was surprised each time his letter was printed in Letter to the Editor because he was giving a perspective probably not more than one percent of American Jewry had but he wasn’t afraid to say it or to work for it… I guess that’s what makes a Chalutz. Others were afraid.

Yuli: Those who came from Israel were bolder and self-sufficient to speak about Jewish matters. Jews in America then were uncomfortable to manifest their Jewishness and Jewish concerns.

Shoshana: Yes, because they still hadn’t made it into the culture. They were still outside. They still couldn’t get into universities. They still couldn’t buy houses in many, many areas. They still couldn’t practice medicine or get into a hospital. There were so many things they could not do because they were outside the American system at that time that they were afraid if they did anything, they would jeopardize their positions which were not the greatest to begin with…

Yuli: Jewish immigration to America didn’t begin only with Russian wave of immigration from 1881-1882 up to 1914, it was before also, from England.

Shoshana: German-Jewish immigration came first. They came earlier. They came in the late 1700s and early 1800s.

Yuli: They were living there more than one hundred years…

Shoshana: Oh yes. They were well-established, some of them did make local governments. They had very fine businesses. They were accepted on a commercial level, on a business level. In Baltimore, we had several Jews on the City Council in the 1800s. They passed a special bill called the Jew Bill which enabled Jews to vote and serve in a political position.

Yuli: Before, they couldn’t?

Shoshana: No, absolutely not. It was a matter of making one’s place in American society which is why the Jews were somewhat intimidated and frightened in the 40s.

Yuli: German Jews entered the society very well but they were not ready to raise their voices. They kept a Jewish way of life. They kept the Jewish religion but still they were not capable of raising their voices.. I heard that one of the Ministers in the Second World War was Jewish.

Shoshana: Yes. Henry Morgenthau. Some did raise their voices. It was a matter of organizing at the national level to get enough of a voice and there weren’t enough voices together.

Yuli: They didn’t have the numbers.

Shoshana: They didn’t have the numbers. Right. They did get to Eleanor Roosevelt to see what they could do with her. You had Henrietta Szold who was influential. You had a group here in Baltimore who was influential but not enough across the country like the majority of Jews we had in 1987 in Washington. 1:34:04

Yuli: From this point of view grassroots made a great contribution because they were a constituency for politicians.

Shoshana: Grassroots were very important.

Yuli: They gave more in numbers than establishment organizations?

Shoshana: That’s correct.

Yuli: How did you go along with them? How did you solve your differences with them, try to influence them?

Shoshana: What I usually do, I express my positions, my concerns and I do that publicly after I have a few people who agree with me in those instances.

Yuli: You prepared your public appearances. Right?

Shoshana: Right. I do my homework before my public appearances. Only one time was I not able to garner sufficient support for my positions, and I didn’t care and I made my positions known anyway… It cost me other positions but I didn’t because principles are more important to me than positions. Most of the time as I did with Abe Foxman, I had people I convinced that there was a reason that I feel this way and this is the information, this is the background, etc. I would like their assistance and I would like to be able to prevail – whether it’s prevailing with my Congressmen or Senators which I do from time to time on a quiet basis. People don’t even know this because everything doesn’t hav eot be public. Let’s put it this way, I have challenged establishment and the “establishment” a number of times because I guess I have my Father’s and Mother’s genes. I am a sabra. If I think it’s the right thing to do, I’ll do it.

Yuli: It’s the quality of a sabra?

Shoshana: Absolutely.

Yuli: Shoshana, I would like just for the record because I need it for my book. After the National Conference, you were President of the Conference of Presidents of Major Jewish Organizations. You got to the very top.

Shoshana: That’s right.

Yuli: Can you tell me you concluded your position with National Conference?

Shoshana: To get to the very top, you have to be the head of a national organization. You have to be both at the same time. In 1991 and 1992, I was Chairman of the Conference of Presidents and that was my last two years with National Conference on Soviet Jewry. I did both at the same time and it worked very well because in the beginning, in 1971, the Conference of Presidents was an ally and a friend of National Conference when it was first formed.

Yuli: I understand that the Conference of Presidents gave their agreement to creating of this organization. They financed it even I think. There were funds allocated for National Conference of Soviet Jewry. In 1991 and in 1992, you were both President of both National Conference and the Conference of Presidents of Major Jewish Organizations. Right?

Shoshana: Correct.

Yuli: What happened after that?

Shoshana: I finished those terms. I became the Chairman of CLAL. CLAL is a national Jewish educational institution founded by Yitz Greenberg, the concept of which was is that we have to break down the barriers between Orthodox, Conservative and Reform. The Rabbis should speak with each other and understand each other and that we have to teach the grass roots what it means to be Jewish and to learn, to make a learned Jewish community. Everybody said how can you do that, you went from the top to nothing? I said no. I you don’t have Jewish learning, this goes back to my own philosophy of life, if you don’t have Jewish learning, you don’t have Jews. If I can help in developing learning components and communities that are ready to learn and study with somebody who comes in or somebody in their community whose sophisticated and knowledgeable enough to teach them, then I’m also, doing G-d’s work so to speak. I did that for two years. Then I became the Chairman of United Israel Appeal, raising and mostly allocating funds for Israel.

Yuli: You were head of the commission of absorption of the Jewish Agency?

Shoshana: I was head of the Soviet Jewry Unit of the Jewish Agency.

Yuli: I remember you there when I were working for the Jewish Agency in 1990-1991. I chaired the Unit.

Shoshana: The unit was formed by Simcha Dinitz, Mendel Kaplan and Baruch. It was formed in 1989. I chaired the Unit from 1989 to 1993 or 1994. I was working with Soviet Jewry in three different places. In each of those three positions, I was working with Soviet Jews, with Russians and Ukrainians. I went to the Ukraine. I went to Georgia. I went to Azerbijhan.

Yuli: In the 90s?

Shoshana: It was already after end of the Soviet Empire.

Yuli: You held three different positions –1st, National Conference for Soviet Jewry; 2nd, as the Head of the Unit for Soviet Jewry and 3rd is?

Shoshana. The Conference of Presidents.

Yuli: It occupied itself with Soviet Jewry?

Shoshana: Through me. I occupied myself with Soviet Jewry.

Yuli: Now I understand. Shoshana…almost the last question.. What were the most memorable meetings that had tremendous impact, with vivid memories with great people of the world.

Shoshana: I’ve been asked this question a number of times and it’s in several histories already. I’ve only mentioned two but I should really have to mention the third. The first memorable meeting at a national level was when Morris Abram took me to a meeting that he set up with George Shultz at the State Department. I had been to the State Department before. It was the first time I sat in Shultz’s office and notice the way he set up the room and where everybody sat. It was Morris Abram, myself, Secretary Shultz, two of his aides and one or two others. (I have to go to my notes) Secretary Shultz sat on the left of a fire place I believe. Next to him sat Morris Abram with an 81/2 by 11 document that he could write on and that he had notes on. He asked me sit next to him even though the room wasn’t set up that way initially. It was the two of them on one side and two on the other side but he wanted me to see what he was doing and how he was doing it. That ‘s why I say Morris Abram was a tremendous influence. I was learning at his knee so to speak. I sat next to him and he began talking with secretary Shultz about the numbers that were coming out, the problems that still existed, not government anti-Semitism but individual anti-Semitsm, the problem with Israel they were having, the lack of diplomatic relations…

Yuli: In which year?

Shoshana: It had to be no later than 1987 and maybe 1986… I was impressed by the quiet way, first the facts and then the question and then the fact and then the question. He waited for Secretary Shultz to respond. Then he was ready for whatever the response was.. He figured out what the answer to the question would be. That’s the way Morris Abram worked. He would ask you a question but he already knew his answer. He always made you feel that you were part of the process. It was such a successful, artful meeting. It was the first meeting that I had with George Shultz where I realized that he cared. He really cared. He had a Jewish neshama. I was really impressed by that.

Yuli: This ethnic German has a Jewish neshama?

Shoshana: I tell you he does. He does. He’s a wonderful man.

Yuli: I was sitting next to him in the meeting with Reagan. He was a very nice person. When you are not talking to him, you don’t know exactly what kind of person he is… You had a talk. You had a discussion. It was very small talk…

Shoshana: Our meeting was 45 minutes. I didn’t participate. I was there to learn. It was Morris and the Secretary who were primarily doing the speaking. It was a very important learning experience for me. First of all I got to know the Secretary which is also, important because I was going to take over from Morris. Second, I began to understand his way of diplomacy. It gave me the security the inner security to speak with the Head of OVIR when I went…

Yuli: Kusnetsov…

Shoshana: Exactly. They had an Ambassador of International Relations. I had no fear and no concerns about meeting people in government if I knew what I was saying, if I had my facts, if I presented it in a way of cooperation, not confrontation. That was a very important meeting for me – in my learning experience. The second important meeting was when I challenged President Bush in September 1991. He came out. He had an Education Day. We were prepared to ask for the loan guarantees, 10 million for Israel for housing. He didn’t want to do it then. He wanted us to wait 90 days. I said that’s the wrong message. It will tell the Soviet Jews we don’t care if they have a place to stay…. He didn’t agree with me. We had an argument in the news media. I met with him two months later – November privately. It was his idea. He had eight aides. I don’t know why he wanted to meet with me privately but I knew why I wanted to meet with him, again going back to the Morris Abram lesson. I said, “Mr. President, when you went on the air and challenged us when we went to Washington to educate Congress, you tore at the net of security that the Jews had and the sharks came swimming. They smelled blood.” He got very upset. He said, what did I say, what did I say, did I even mention Jews? I said, no. Then, General Snowcroft was there. General Snowcroft said, you didn’t say anything about Jews. I said ,Mr. President, everybody knew who was there and why we were there. Anti-Semitic phone calls flooded the White House afterwards. We tracked them. Letters as well as phone calls that were anti-Semitic reached the White House. They knew that they had them. That was not an issue. I said, I’m sure you didn’t mean to do that. It was very disturbing to the American Jewish community and very upsetting. He said, I certainly didn’t and I apologize and so forth and so on. He was very nice about it. He was really shocked. He hadn’t understood what he did quite fully. We were going then to a larger meeting that I had convened to meet with the President after that incident because we were getting ready as in January 1992 we were supposed to get the loan guarantees and we wanted to talk to him about it. He said, Shoshana, will you please tell the members of the Conference of Presidents about our discussion. That’s where chutzpa comes in. I blamed it on the sabra quality. I said, Mr. President, I don’t think so.

Yuli: I don’t understand this point. He wanted to sell it to other members of the Conference of Presidents…

Shoshana: In our next meeting. We were meeting 15 minutes later. In our next meeting with members of the Conference of Presidents, he wanted me to convey our discussion to them. I said, I don’t think I am going to tell them. It was very uncomfortable as we walked down the long hall because it’s a long hall from his suite to the meeting room. He put his hand on my arm and he said to me again, Shoshana, will you please tell them that I’m sorry and the conversation we had. I said, no I don’t think I should.

Yuli: It would be much stronger coming from you than if he himself said it.

Shoshana: Exactly. When we entered the room, he said, “welcome”. The first thing he said is I’ve had an interesting conversation with Shoshana. She is very direct. That’s how he described me. I want to explain to you it’s not what I intended. In essence he apologized to the whole group. I don’t think any President has ever done that. I don’t think any President is been in a position to do that. For me, that was memorable. One, he was a mensch. He understood after I explained to him literally what it did for the community. He was truly sorry. I trust him. He was truly sorry. I do believe he watched what he did afterwards. It didn’t mean he changed his foreign policy because he didn’t give the loan guarantees in 1992 because he didn’t like Shamir and Sharon’s building policies. It’s not too different from now… I don’t know where I got the chutzpa to do that. After all, I was talking to the President of the United States and I have no authority or power what-so-ever, not even a title except for the Chairman of the Conference of Presidents. Second was with Gorbachev when I asked him to condemn anti-Semitism.

Yuli: When was it?

Shoshana: It has to be 1991 also. I probably spoke to Gorbachev before Bush and maybe that’s where I got the nerve to do it. Yes, in October 1991 before the Soviet Union collapsed.

Yuli: I remember that after that, you were at the General Assembly of the Jewish Agency in Jerusalem. You were sitting in a hall together with others. Mendel Kaplan and Simcha Dinitz were sitting there in the Presidium and you raised and asked the questions. He began to answer… You said you just have met with Mr. Gorbachev who thinks otherwise… It had a big impact on the people sitting there. There were a lot of people. Mendel Kaplan said to you, Shoshana, can you come to the Presidium please. Do you remember that?

Shoshana: I remember that.

Yuli: What did you talk to Mr. Gorbachev about?

Shoshana: We talked about what can I do for you which is usually the way I begin. What can I do for you in my position, etc. etc. We know the Soviet Union is having problems and we spoke for awhile about the problems. He said they need economic assistance – the usual answer. This was before the Babi yar 50th commemoration. I said to Mr. Gorbachev, I know you’re sending someone to Babi Yar to represent you and to speak at the 50th anniversary of the tragedy, the massacre at the Babi Yar commemoration and I think it would be helpful. I think it would be helpful if you renounced anti-Semitism for the whole Soviet Union. He said I can’t. There are too many other ethnic groups. We have over 100 and some ethnic groups. If I do it for them… I don’t know how to do it. I said Mr. President, President Bush did it by speaking at the University of Texas at graduation. He said, ”I denounce all forms of xenophobia, anti-Semitism and racism. If you can’t separate anti-Semitism, you can denounce xenophobia, racism and anti-Semitism and then you’ll cover everybody. He thought about it. He said I’m very sorry. I don’t think I can do that… We had a nice meeting. We said good-bye. We went to a press conference that we had set up. That was National Conference for Soviet Jewry press conference. They asked me how the meeting went with President Gorbachev. I said it was polite…

Yuli: Was the press conference together with Gorbachev or separately?

Shoshana: Separately. They asked if he denounced anti-Semitism? I said he can’t do it… and I added at this time. From the time of that news conference until we got to our hotel, he had already release a statement that was on Russian radio and later on television that he denounced anti-Semitism. We succeeded. I don’t know what changed his mind after we left but he didn’t have more than a half hour to change his mind. He denounced anti-Semitism. When Yakovlev went to Babi Yar in the Ukraine to speak at the commemoration, he issued the same decree that the Soviet Union denounces anti-Semitism.

Yuli: Yakovlev was a very known figure. Shoshana, almost the last question…

Shoshana: You said that three questions ago.

Yuli: (laughing) You bring me to other subjects. The very last question…

Shoshana: We can do an additional interview sometime later when you want…

Yuli: Enid will print out the interview and maybe there will be other questions within the framework… Then, with your permission, I will be glad to call you again. The last question: “How do you see the future of the Jewish people?” You went through all the positions. You were at the top. You were in the middle. From childhood, you were in this atmosphere. You are an organic, integral Jew who was fighting for Jewish interests all your life. You had a good life, an interesting life. How do you see the future?

Shoshana: I think it’s very difficult. I don’t think that American Jews are sensitive to the fact that whatever happens to Israel will affect them here. I think that there people who are trying to tell them now that the future of world Jewry depends in large measure on the future of Israel. Israel speaks for world Jewry 1:57:34 and I believe that it does in its own way…starting back with Entebbe. If that’s the case, and that’s the way the world sees it, non-Jews, Jews, and Israelis, those who are anti-Zionist or actually anti-Semitic in most respects. I guess I would say it’s a very muddy picture now – unclear. Unclear because I don’t know what will happen when Sharon really tries to remove some settlements.

Yuli: Are you for or against it?

Shoshana: I’m for. I’ve been for for a long time since 1991. I don’t what turmoil it will cause in Israel. It might cause the fall of the government and I don’t know who will be elected after that although I imagine it will be a hardliner. It’s unclear. It’s also, unclear what will happen with the Palestinians whether there will be a civil war or not. The world really believes they are the victims, not the oppressors which is very interesting in itself.

Yuli: Iraq and Afganistan doesn’t have any influence on the facts that they are victims.

Shoshana: No.

Yuli: Or are there cultural differences or of they just have a wild understanding of the culture – terror, this kind of terror…

Shoshana: A total lack of understanding of the culture which is why the Palestinians are the victims. Some people will make Iraqi victims of American hostilities. We have a very interesting country here. I would say whatever we do, we have to do cautiously, recognizing that this year will be a pivotal year in the history of the United States and Israel – actually for the world because of the election we have here and the possibility of an early election in Israel. It doesn’t mean that we don’t continue the work we’re doing. But I think we have to be aware that there may be sudden changes and we have to be prepared to answer those changes and we don’t always do that.

Yuli: In time. We do it but sometimes two generations later. We are an eternal people. I believe there is no force in the world which can destroy the Jewish people. Israel is so important. It gave a different dimension and stability to the Jewish people and a refuge to the Jewish people.

Shoshana: Yuli, if you could speak to every community in the United States, it might help. They do not understand it. From me, I’m considered prejudice. In that respect people don’t pay attention to me anymore because they know what I’m going to say. I’ve been saying it for 50 years but the majority of American Jews don’t believe it and don’t want to believe it. I know it’s hard for you to hear but it’s true.

Yuli: Maybe we should change it somehow…

Shoshana: I’m trying but I’m only one.

Yuli: You are capable of mobilizing many others. I’m sure of that… At least another 35-40 years… You have a lot, a lot, a lot yet in your bones and in your blood to do it.
Shoshana, I thank you very, very much.

Shoshana: You’re welcome. It’s my pleasure.

Yuli: Once more, I wish you a lot of real health in order to continue your sacred work. I wish you until 120 at least to be in good form to make us happy and yourself of course. I thank you very much for this interview. Thank you. All the best.