Yuli Kosharovky and Enid Wurtman’s interview with Bernie Dishler on November 30th 2004 in Jerusalem. Dr. Dishler was a leading activist for Soviet Jewry in Philadelphia.

Yuli: We are sitting in our office in Jerusalem with one of the most wonderful souls of the Soviet Jewry movement, Bernie Dishler. We will begin to remember how and where and how your efforts for Soviet Jewry began. We will begin with our traditional questions where and when you were born.

Bernie: Philadelphia March 18th 1939.

Yuli: Into what kind of family were you born?

Bernie: My late father; an older brother. My father was born in Lithuania in 1900 and came to the US in 1905. My Mother’s family was born in Poland. Her parents emigrated before they were married. They met and married in New York. We were a traditional family, not very religious but we always had a kosher home. We belonged to a synagogue. My father was a paperhanger – putting wall paper on the walls. My Mother was a housewife. My brother is four years older.

Yuli: Were there Zionist sentiments in the family?

Bernie: The truth is my father spent most of his time trying to make a living. I always remember that when he didn’t work on Shabbat he went to synagogue. Most of the time he had to work on Shabbat. As far as Zionism, I remember when the state was formed, I was 9 years old and it was exciting… I remember some of it… I remember my parents going to Israel Bond dinners.

Yuli: You are from a secular traditional family; not from shtetl family; a city family.

Bernie: My father’s family was from Biers, Lithuania, a smaller community…

Yuli: You were from a traditional family. When did something first appear in your life to move you towards the struggle for Soviet Jewry involving a time commitment; financial outlay etc?

Bernie: When Kosygin came to the United States in 1972. They organized the first march on Washington on Father’s Day. (which is a traditional day for fathers to spend with their children) It was a Sunday and I remember going to Washington to protest for Soviet Jewry. It might be my second Father’s Day when my daughter was two years old.

Yuli: You were 32…

Bernie: That’s the first thing about Soviet Jewry and the second thing is I met this angel. (Enid)

Yuli: Oh yes… She is really something…

Bernie: Friends invited us to their home to hear a couple who just returned from the Soviet Union in 1974. Interestingly enough we heard their story which was very disturbing what they saw. Then I met an immigrant, a dentist who had come to the United States from Moscow and someone asked me in the place where I buy my supplies… This guy was there coincidentally at the same time and this person said would you like to meet him? I said: “Is there anything that I can do for you?” He said that he would like to learn English and asked me to help him. I used to go for a couple of hours a weeks and spent time talking to him. He wanted to improve his English by conversation. After Enid talked about what they saw and he confirmed the situation. He was not a refusenik. He got out easily. He moved to Israel eventually from Philadelphia…

Yuli: Among dentists it’s not so often…

Bernie: Enid recommended that we adopt a family. At that time we were able to send money. We were able to send checks in to Refuseniks. We adopted Oksana and Alexander Chertin. We’d gather money together from our friends – $5, a month each; and when tourists went, we sent in the checks.

Yuli: I don’t remember being part of this program…

Bernie: Probably not… Then after that we decided to travel to the Soviet Union… We met you after your second trip… We realized it would be a good idea for us to go… We went on our first trip in December 1975. We went to the Brussels Conference in 1976. I went alone (without Lana) in March 1977 when Natan was about to be arrested. I came the weekend that he was accused in Izvestia. We came to the Slepaks apartment that weekend; and then Lana and I went again in 1983.

Yuli: By 1976, you were a very active member of the Soviet Jewry Council in Philadelphia… My understanding was that the story was different in Philadelphia than in other cities. There you worked with both the Union of Councils for Soviet Jewry and National Conference for Soviet Jewry.

Enid: The group merged and became part of the JCRC and became more actively involved with the establishment especially after we made aliya.

Yuli: I understand that you were very active Bernie. You were champions for Soviet Jewry. You were responsible for sending people to Russia.

Bernie: We got involved. Early on we all believed that travel was very important to get people to go. First we used to get travelers to go. Then we became more sophisticated and we tried to get Jewish educators and people who could give you more than a tape recorder. We had a program where we were raising money to just do that…

Yuli: How did you come to this idea? How did you see this idea? How did you implement this idea? What did it really mean for you? Did you meet people and try to persuade them or you found people who were going and you instructed them? Would you provide them with information; money; needed materials? It was quite a complicated business… You were dealing with not only Moscow but the whole Soviet Union. You need ed to know the geography; specifics and where Refuseniks lived…

Bernie: It was complicated… It was mostly Moscow and Leningrad. It was Kiev, Vilna and Riga and Kharkov. It was a progression. It started our just with people just going who would come to us and wanted information.

Yuli: How were people aware of you? Through synagogues; newspapers; NCSJ?

Bernie: We made noise. If someone went to the Soviet Union and returned from visiting Refuseniks, we tried to get it in the local press, The Jewish Exponent. There would public information. We’d speak a lot. We’d try to get to synagogues; Bnai Brith groups and ask them to put on a program. We became better and better at putting on programs. We had pictures; show slides of Refuseniks.

Yuli: Did those who returned give lectures?

Bernie: Not everybody but a lot of us…

Yuli: From these lectures you enrolled others to travel…

Bernie: Some people became interested because of hearing it just as I heard Enid and Stuart and I became interested…

Yuli: Did Enid and Stuart deliver lectures after they returned?

Bernie: Of course.

Enid: That’s how Bernie heard us lecturing at the home of mutual friends. We lectured all the time.

Bernie: Some people would become inspired and just want to go for that purpose…
Then there were people going to Russia and said could I do something? At that time everyone paid their own way… The only thing that maybe we did was we might have some articles that were donated.

Enid: Did you raise money for Jewish educators?

Bernie: Then we raised money for Jewish educators and community leaders…

Yuli: When?

Bernie: Around 1979… Actually JCRC came to us and said you’re spending too much money… We were a big part of their budget then… JCRC said we need you to raise money for us. Joe said well if we raise money we want something for us that’s separate. We were trying to raise $50,000. and we got a portion to use as a travel program. Then we helped Jewish educators who didn’t have a lot of money and couldn’t afford these trips… We would send educators and also, political people e.g. the District Attorney who is now the Governor of Pennsylvania Rendell…(In name only he is Jewish. He didn’t have a Bar Mitzvah. He didn’t have much of a Jewish background.) The governor of Pennsylvania was going on a trade mission for commerce to the Soviet Union. He asked to be briefed about Soviet Jewry and we sent him to some Refuseniks.

Yuli: How did you brief him?

Bernie: We went to his office and told him the story of what you people were going through and why it’s important for him, although he’s going for a different purpose, to raise the issue among Soviet officials.… We always felt whatever contact any American had with officials in the Soviet government that they should raise the issue of Refuseniks. It was important for Soviet officials to know at every level whenever they had important contacts with Americans…

Yuli: Why was it important for him?

Bernie: Because he was a humanitarian, a good man… We were his constituents. He also, wanted to satisfy his constituents.

Yuli: Did you warn him of dangers?

Bernie: No… We told him that he’d be discouraged from visiting Refuseniks by the authorities. We told him it was his right to do it.

Yuli: Did you tell him in which conditions the Refuseniks lived; that they were guarded; that he might be immediately put under surveillance for visiting Refuseniks? How did you base all your information about Refuseniks; about who should be visited; what should be taken?

Bernie: It was very difficult to coordinate it al but we tried to work with everybody who sent people. We would work with Union of Councils and National Conference. At what point I became Chairman of National Conference Travel Program. I was establishment..
Joe was also, National Conference.

Yuli: Here you see housewives…

Enid: Did you actually brief tourists from other cities?

Bernie: No. Except of there were places with no briefing… Once in a while I remember Chicago Federation had a group going and they didn’t have a good relationship with Pam. Therefore, they asked me to come to Chicago but that was very rare…

Enid: How did you conduct the National Briefing Committee for National Conference?

Bernie: We would try to get briefers from other cities and Canada too to come to meet once in a while and we’d discuss strategy…

Yuli: What questions were aroused? What kind of strategy did you use?

Bernie: We talked about what kind of travelers should be going.. and how we did it in Philadelphia… and how in Toronto they did it a little differently…

Yuli: Was there a unity of opinions or different approaches?

Bernie: It was more than two Jews… There were more than three opinions… (laughing)
We all agree to send more cultural kind travelers not just ordinary travelers… to give seminars…

Enid: To impart Jewish knowledge…

Yuli: We were more or less a desert from the Jewish point of view… We also, had Scientist Seminars…

Bernie: We didn’t do much of that… Occasionally scientists would come because they were going to the Soviet Union for scientific meetings… We would tell them about the Refusenik Science seminar.. Brailovsky lectures… They would go to one meeting…

Yuli: Did you send someone to my seminar; to the Hebrew Teachers Seminar?

Bernie: Sure… We sent Hebrew teachers… I remember we sent Steven Brown who came with our Chazan, Cantor Davidson who came with a keyboard…They came to you… We always sent the Hebrew teachers to you… We also, sent Rabbis…

Yuli: Did you also, have contact with Lou Rosenbloom?

Bernie: Not really…

Yuli: Did you participate in conferences in the United States?

Bernie: Mostly National Conference… Occasionally we’d go to Union of Councils meetings as well… The relationship became more and more strained as we became closer to National Conference they no longer had the same trust in us…

Yuli: Very strange… You knew each other well.. You were enrolled by the Union of Councils to this struggle…. Did you share the feeling that only the establishment should lead the struggle?

Bernie: I always believed the more people involved the better… The only place we were concerned was about two groups in Washington in terms of contact with American authorities…having more than one group giving information may have been counter-productive… Other than that we never had a problem… Occasionally a traveler would come to Yuli Kosharovsky’s on a Tuesday night and there would be other travelers from other cities there and that was not the best situation… Other than that, that didn’t happen so often and that was not a real issue… Sometimes if someone asked for medical supplies and it was urgent, Pam would call me and aske me if someone was going soon and we’d try to get that information out… We had no computers; no fax machines at that time… The way we communicated was archaic…compared to today…

Yuli: Did you coordinate your efforts with someone from Israel?

Bernie: Israel was a different situation. They ran an operation in the United States.. They had people going… They never told us… They were very secretive about it… The people they sent were very secretive…

Yuli: Did you coordinate your program with the Israelis?

Bernie: No. They wanted the information from us…

Yuli: They wanted all the information… They were very Socialist…

Bernie: They wanted all the information; all the trip reports… The information was only one way… one direction with Israel…

Yuli: Were you in touch with Student Struggle for Soviet Jewry?

Bernie: We had some connection with Student Struggle through National Conference meetings.… Glenn would be there… Jacob would be there… There wasn’t a lot of coordination…

Enid: I was coordinator of Student Struggle for Soviet Jewry in Philadelphia…

Bernie: We would send student leaders from universities. I had a call two months ago from the Middle East editor of New Yorker magazine… and he said you sent me to the Soviet Union. He said do you have my trip report? He’s writing a book now… Jeffrey Goldberg. He was the editor of the Daily Pennsylvanian at University of Pennsylvania. Dan Segal had recruited him… We spoke about Rabbis. We felt it was good to send Rabbis for two reasons, number one for what they could give you and number two they could talk to their congregants. They were sensitized to the issue and they became activists. They had a pulpit every week. It was good if we had a Rabbi who came back excited… We tried to get different people. We had a catholic nun who was active and we sent her…Sister Gloria Coleman. We tried to reach different people from different walks of life…

Yuli: In 1979 the Soviets invaded Afganistan. The situation inside the Soviet Union became very difficult… The Cold War was intensified. Instead of the Helsinki process, the relationship turned cold between the US and the Soviet Union and a real fight began… Did it influence your activities?

Bernie: Sure… It intensified our activities… We became more active. We became active over the Olympics… We didn’t say the United States should not go to the Olympics. We said the United States should raise the Soviet Jewry issue if they go to the Olympics…

Yuli: The United States didn’t go to the Olympics not because of Jews but because of Afganistan…

Bernie: It was a very tense time… We all were very concerned…

Yuli: At this time all the fight for Soviet Jewry, all the publicity was it accepted by the American public?

Bernie: I remember whenever there were Soviet performers we would come and hand out information about Soviet Jewry.. We didn’t tell them not to go in.. JDL would do that – tell them not to go in… We would just give them information about Soviet Jews. Some Jews, even though it was just information, were really very upset that we would be there at a cultural event. This was not politics – this is culture to them. They didn’t understand that everything was politics to the Soviet Union.

Enid: What do you think the motivation was for most people who became involved in the Soviet Jewry movement?

Bernie: I think a lot of people because we’re an Ashkanazi community. I think for a lot of people therefore the grace of G-d go I… If my grandparents didn’t leave Russia when they did I would be in that situation. I think a lot of Jews identified with that… I think a lot of Jews also, thought about the Holocaust that if the Jewish community had been more active then, then maybe they could have done something. There were some Jews who were real Zionists who did it for the Zionism that we’ll get people to go to Israel. That became an issue in our community because neshira became an issue. Some people thought very strongly that we shouldn’t help any Jew unless they want to go to Israel. Other people felt they’re Jews…

Yuli: Are you saying that most activities were arising among people whose parents came from this region, the FSU.

Bernie: That was a strong point.

Yuli: People still felt close these to people who stayed there.

Bernie: It could have been them.

Enid: We were fortunate that our grandparents left and we could have been in your position had our grandparents not left. We felt a personal responsibility for you.

Yuli: Today I feel much more brilliant that my parents didn’t go because I had a chance to take part in the struggle. (laughing) A real one and survive.

Bernie: Last year at the GA Natan told a story that his neighbor you know when you were in prison the Jewish community was so active and so energized by the Soviet Jewry movement. It was a wonderful time. He said “I’m not going back to prison for you”…
You feel privileged now afterwards. During the time I’m not sure you were so privileged…

Yuli: In many incarnations of human destiny I think this chance was not so often…and I had this chance.

Bernie: You played an important role.

Yuli: About the neshira problem, we are coming to a sensitive subject. What was your personal point of view?

Bernie: My personal position was I thought it was important for people to go to Israel. But I didn’t feel they had enough knowledge or information or background to make that decision themselves. Some people may not make that same decision. I didn’t feel just because a Jew wanted to go somewhere else… I didn’t live in Israel. I had an opportunity and I didn’t go to Israel. I always felt we should help anybody; not go out of our way to help them and not encourage them. We felt that HIAS may be encouraged them too much but we never wanted to do that… I always felt that if someone came here I wasn’t going to turn my head and not look at them that they were a Jew…

Yuli: HIAS is another story. They wanted to survive. No matter what happened to the Jewish people they would do what they had to do and try to get funds from the United States government. As to a kind of complex “I am here; who am I to say not to come here”, it’s also counterproductive from our point of view…. You helped so much to Soviet Jewry. You helped the whole lost tribe. You were helping them come to Israel. From another side, you were not fighting for immigration to Israel. You were fighting for exodus from the Soviet Union mostly, right?

Bernie: Not really. No. Our focus was on Israel and we did everything we could to send Zionists to Refuseniks. We didn’t want people who never traveled to Israel to go to the Soviet Union. We wanted everyone to encourage everybody they met there to go to Israel. We didn’t go to Congress and say stop allowing Jews to come to the United States. We did everything we could to encourage people to go to Israel – sending in books and everything that would help…

Enid: Strengthen Jewish identity so that Soviet Jews would be motivated to come to Israel.
Yuli: Peres once said a very interesting thing… Too much information about Israel will not help people come to Israel. Compared with information about America, they would prefer America…

Bernie: I remember the early days when Refuseniks complained about Kol Yisrael that they were talking about the orange trees…

Yuli: Here you have a dream and a vision… You take your destiny in your own hands.. This is very important… Did you discuss neshira problems?

Bernie: Yes. In fact it was a big issue. We (the Soviet Jewry Council) ended up taking a weekend retreat away from everything. We hired two organizational psychologists. We tried to develop a mission statement for the Soviet Jewry Council to try to bridge the gap between different people who had different points of view so that we could forward with our important work. I think this happened in 1980.

Yuli: Immigration was almost zero then…

Enid and Bernie: The lowest years were between 1983 – 1986.

Enid: 1979 was the highest with 51,000…

Bernie: Then it went down to 32,000, I think…

Yuli: The figures were low in 1980 – 1981. Immediately after Afganistan they stopped immigration.

Bernie: Not immediately though…

Yuli: They entered in 1979.. 1980 – 1986 immigration figures were low…

Enid: (Checking the figures) 1983-1986 were the lowest definitely under 1000 each year.

1981 – Olim 1,770
1982 – Olim 782
1983 Olim 399
1986 Olim 202

Yuli: What about 1980?

Enid: 1980 – 7,570 – Olim

Yuli: Maybe it was those who got permission the previous year and were in the pipeline. The authorities stopped relating to Western pressure and Western propaganda. In 1987 the immigration figures rose again.

How many years were you involved in sending tourists to the Soviet Union?

Bernie: From 1976 to 1990.

Yuli: 17 years…

Bernie: Is that a long time? How long were you a refusenik?

Yuli: If it was according to my will, I would do it shorter… With all the privileges and so on… I would make it much shorter..

Bernie: And we the same…

Yuli: Something moved you to be involved…

Bernie: That’s why we felt the travel program was so important because it was very personal. When you met refuseniks in their apartments, they were emblazoned in your heart.

Yuli: It was very important… From one side it helped to Refuseniks a lot. They were longing to see someone from a free world – how they looked; what they think. I think it was important as well for the community in America… Did you meet with other people who organized this travel program?

Bernie: Through the two organizations… National Conference and our local organization.

Enid: Bernie was the Chairman of the National Briefing Committee for National Conference for Soviet Jewry.

Yuli: You also, briefed your political figures. What was included in your briefing of normal American citizens traveling to the Soviet Union to visit refuseniks?

Bernie: We would meet with them at least four times for at least two hours each session.
We were very serious because we felt it was very important for someone to go into your apartment and to know the situation. They had to know about Jackson-Vanik Amendment. They had to know your history. We didn’t them to visit knowing nothing.
We felt that you wouldn’t be interested. It would be a waste of your time to meet someone like that.. We felt that it was embarrassing for you to meet someone who didn’t know anything. We took it very seriously. If someone didn’t want a briefing, we weren’t interested in dealing with them…

Yuli: Did you give them materials to read?

Bernie: We gave them materials to read. We spoke to them…

Yuli: Did you tell them about dangers involved?

Bernie: We didn’t feel there were any dangers involved. There weren’t any dangers…The worse thing that could possibly happen was that they were asked to leave the country… It was an alien society to us….

Yuli: How did the Soviet Union look to you?

Bernie: It was dark and dismal… I only went in the winter…

Yuli: Was there a real feeling that the Soviet Union was threatening the United States?

Bernie: I don’t think so. We always took the attitude that the Soviet Union really needed the United States. We could help Jews because the Soviet Union wanted something from the United States. That was always our position. For many years according to National Conference philosophy, we always stayed away from arms agreements. Everything else we felt was fair to be involved in…

Yuli: I assume you supported Jackson-Vanik and the Helsinki process – human rights basket…

Bernie: There were some people who felt it was dangerous to mix the human rights issues with Soviet Jewry. Soviet Jewry was strictly an emigration issue.

Yuli: How did you see the relations with Soviet Jewry activists and dissidents?

Bernie: We used to think that was a problem. Many times were asked to talk to Sharansky…

Yuli: It’s very difficult to move Sharansky from his position…

Bernie: Agreed…

Yuli: It was the position of the Israeli establishment as well…To Enid – Were you indifferent to working with dissidents or aliya activists?

Enid: That’s not true… I believed in the supporting the Jewish activists.

Yuli: Did you feel it was appropriate that Jewish activists would work for common goals with dissidents – to democratize the Soviet Union?

Enid: Not at all…

Bernie: We had a Ukrainian group in Philadelphia who was working for Ukrainain nationalism… They wanted to be involved with us. We stayed away… There was one time when a Soviet ship came to a Philadelphia port. We decided to hire a little boat and go out into the water with a big banner, FREE SOVIET JEWS. (possibly in 1986) I don’t know how the Ukrainians became involved. They took part. I don’t know how it happened that they got on the boat. In general, we always stayed separate. It’s funny. Just to digress. About two years ago I heard Sharansky talk about his philosophy about democratizing the Palestinians.

Yuli: He wanted to democratize the Syrians… the whole Middle East.

Bernie: I asked Natan: “Do you ever think the Palestinians will be a democracy?” Natan said: “You said in 1975 that the Soviet Union never would ever become a democracy.”

Yuli: It’s still a question. In the last 500 years they never had a democracy. It’s necessary to change the psyche for the next generation. Gradually… Japan did it because it was defeated. It was occupied. They didn’t want the next nuclear bombs to fall on their shoulders. It’s a completely different situation. As a vision, it’s a good wish… I agree with it 100%… Democratic states usually don’t fight and don’t promote terror.

Bernie: You should read his book… President Bush read his book…

Enid: The Case for Democracy that Natan wrote with Ron Dermer.

Bernie: Bush has quoted the book…

Yuli: The strategic goals are good. It will not work immediately… You must defeat a country before trying to impose some kind of values which are completely alien to them. It will take a lot of blood… Gradually to prepare them… I have a very important question… your family life during these years… How did Lana handle your activism?

Bernie: Lana was very involved also. I think our children may have suffered from it… There may be some resentment to this day…

Enid: Soviet Jewry took over our lives…

Bernie: Lana was very actively involved – in different levels – doing a lot of speaking. She was Chairman of the Soviet Jewry Council for three years.

Yuli: I don’t understand the structure now…

Enid: Originally the Philadelphia Soviet Jewry Council was independent and was affiliated then Union of Councils. When Joe became active, he recommended merging the group with National Conference. The Soviet Jewry Council became part of the establishment. It became part of the Jewish Community Relations Council. Soviet Jewry Council was established in the early ‘70s. Our friend Lenny Shuster was a one man band in Philadelphia for Soviet Jewry and then he moved to Israel in 1973. It was a very loose framework. He got some people involved. Lenny was in contact with Lou Rosenblum.

Yuli: Lou Rosenblum – that was already a framework. Lou was active from 1964. He was active for 8 years by this time.

Bernie: The Soviet Jewry Council was a group in Philadelphia. It was affiliated with the Union of Councils.

Enid: Stuart and I were Chairmen of the Soviet Jewry Council in Philadelphia.

Bernie: When Joe Smukler became involved, he said let’s merge the groups. There was a group in Philadelphia for Soviet Jewry which called themselves the Committee for 1000. (via JCRC) We were never sure what the 1000 was… It was an establishment group which did nothing.

Enid: Rabbi Sidney Greenberg was involved and Rabbi Maurice Corson.

Bernie: They had one event a year – a march on Simchat Torah. I don’t know what happened with travelers…

Enid: Stuart and I met with Rabbi Maurice Corson who sold us a few books and got us a few names which were mostly out of date.

Bernie: He got the names from Abe Bayer.

Enid: or from National Conference…

Bernie: It was really an ineffectual group but Joe felt that if we would be involved with National Conference and if the Jewish Federation in Philadelphia would support it, the organization would have more credibility.

Yuli: Almost everywhere it began as part of Jewish Federation. They developed some sort of Soviet Jewry commission. Some people were studying the subject. It was from above. From the ground people emerged and developed their own Soviet Jewry organizational framework. For example Lenny Shuster who contacted Lou Rosenblum. He didn’t want to do nothing like the Committee of 1000. He decided to do more. Joe Smukler decided to join the establishment.

Enid: This is what happened. Lenny had a small group. We formalized the Soviet Jewry group with the people he involved who represented synagogues and organizations. Then after Connie and Joe went with us to Russia, Joe recommended that we merge with the establishment. Then there was a vote which took place in our home in Merion. They wanted to merge with JCRC which received directions from National Conference. There were Jewish Community Relations Councils all over the US and they are part of Federations all over the United States. Those were establishment groups and some of them developed Soviet Jewry Committees. Once we merged then we worked with NACRAC and we were on the board of National Conference. (and we were invited to meetings in New York about four times a year)

Yuli: You were briefed there. You were presented with information there. You held discussions. Did Israelis attend these meetings?

Bernie: Yes they were always there from the Israeli Consulate in New York.

Enid: They were very helpful to me when you got permission to leave and I wanted to call you in Moscow from New York. They were so nice to me. One of those who worked in the Israeli Consulate in New York was Ben Gurion’s grandson, Mushi.

Yuli: Who besides you were taking in the board sessions of National Conference?

Bernie: National Conference was made up of all the Jewish organizations in the establishment – e.g. Hadassah; Jewish War Veterans; etc. That’s how National Conference started.

Enid: National Conference was an umbrella Soviet Jewry organization.

Bernie: Then they started to have some community representatives too. Philadelphia was there. Los Angles; Chicago; Houston etc. They had representatives on the National Conference Board. It was mostly organizations. They would debate issues. Sometimes it was difficult to get them to move because they all had their own agenda.

Yuli: They had their institutional interests. For 10 years they didn’t want to establish and appoint a staff person for National Conference because they didn’t want the power taken away from them. It was not a hot issue. When did you feel that it became a dominant issue on the United States Jewish agenda?

Enid: It absolutely did!

Bernie: Around 1985. The Federations became the sexy issue. I’m sure you met a lot of Federation leadership. They discovered Soviet Jewry! This happened when Morris Abram became Chairman of National Conference around 1985.

Enid: Morris Abram was the person that Shoshana Cardin viewed as her mentor at National Conference and the Conference of Presidents.

Yuli: I remember that Morris Abram came with Edward Bronfman to Moscow. There were four people.

Enid: It was a very controversial trip.

Bernie: At the same time that Morris Abram was the Chairman of National Conference, he was Chairman of the Conference of Presidents. He was very well connected with the Republican Party. He had an appointment by the President.

Yuli: This was the time that President Reagan was in power and Shultz. There was Richard Schifter in the state department. Did he work with the Jewish communities?

Bernie: He was very helpful. He would come once in a while to a meeting and speak. I think he was helpful. Morris Abram had these connections in the Commerce Department with whom he had a good relationship. Morris Abram was the first one… We always took the attitude that we could involve ourselves in trade but when it came to nuclear disarmament that was something we couldn’t exert pressure there. Abram said absolutely one could that any relations with the Soviet Union, you can interfere. I think it was one of the major changes in policy…

Yuli: There was someone named Goldberg, the Head of the American Jewish Congress. He was very cautious. He always wanted to get in touch with the Soviets. He wanted to work behind the scenes with the Soviets in the hopes of achieving agreements through this method. Abram was a fighter, correct?

Bernie: I think that was one of the most important things that changed.

Yuli: Reagan and Shultz were very significant.

Bernie: The Soviets knew it was serious when Reagan and Shultz raised Soviet Jewry at disarmament meetings. All of a sudden Abram comes with a list of names. Abram said to Reagan if they won’t agree on Helsinki, how do you think they’ll agree on disarmament that their signature will mean anything…

Yuli: At what stage was Kissinger involved? I remember the visit of Kissinger to Moscow. We met with him twice. That was during Jackson-Vanik. He was Secretary of State with Nixon.

Enid: I found Yuli an appeal that you signed before Nixon’s first visit this week.

Yuli: Nixon together with Kissinger wanted a trade agreement with the Soviets because for them we were just nothing and they were fighting very strongly against Jackson-Vanik.

Enid: They were for detent.

Bernie: Kissinger was against Jackson-Vanik

Yuli: Nixon gave these orders. They wanted trade at any price. Later Kissinger came in some official capacity to Moscow and held a meeting at the American Embassy. There were a limited number of people there. Then it was a different Kissinger.

Enid: Did Refuseniks meet with Kissinger?

Yuli: Six or seven Refuseniks were there.

Enid: Were you present Yuli?

Yuli: I spoke to him. I remember that I asked him (maybe in 1987 or 1988)… Maybe he had a special mission. I found my invitations to the American Embassy and there should be dates there. I asked Kissinger how can you sign new treaties when you clearly see they don’t fulfill the previous ones. Kissinger responded saying that any treaty is a function of relations of might. It has no meaning at all – only when you have dominative might. The more powerful partner can be sure that the obligations to him will be fulfilled. The weaker – no.

Enid: Do you remember the international campaign that we mobilized in behalf of Yuli?

Yuli: Did you launch an international campaign for me?

Bernie: Yes…(Jokingly) maybe two people were involved.

Yuli: According to the documents that I have I understand that there was a very forceful campaign which launched Stanley Roskin from Pittsberg in 1988. I have 25 letters of his from different sources. I understand there was a personal campaign of Jeff Tigay who succeeded to organize 570 signatories of Doctors of Science of different academic institutions to send to the Soviets. I found a third campaign that Alan Riga was doing from Ohio – a number of letters to Soviet officials. Martin Gilbert also, took part quite considerably.

Enid: We also, played a very active role in the international campaign in your behalf Yuli. You will see in my telephone conversations with you and you will see that the activities that Bernie and I organized and we were in contact with each other.

Bernie: This may have been at the time of your hunger strike.

Enid: The hunger strike was in March 1988.

Yuli: It began during my hunger strike – this international campaign in my behalf…

Enid: Your seventeen day hunger strike.

Enid: Bernie was very active with American officials. At the time we were coordinating our efforts for you.

Bernie: I just remembered that we had a meeting in Washington. Philadelphia Federation went to Washington. We had a briefing with Congressmen on Jewish issues, not limited to Soviet Jewry. At 12 o’clock we joined the Washington community vigil opposite the Soviet Embassy. (which they held everyday across from the Soviet Embassy from 12-12:30PM). We tried to hand them petitions and the Soviets never took anything. By 1988 we were invited into the Embassy. We had arranged a meeting. I presented your information to the Soviet officials. They were very cordial. They said they would verify why you were waiting all these years… They couldn’t understand why you were held back so long…

Yuli: Everyone else left…

Enid: I would speak to Bernie from Israel and Bernie would tell me what he was doing in Philadelphia and in Washington for you which I related to you by phone. I would tell you what I was doing in your behalf. I wrote to all the Ambassadors to Israel; American officials including Richard Schifter; a demonstration in your behalf if I remember correctly etc. We launched an international campaign in your behalf!

Bernie: We worked with Yuli Edeslstein. By that time he came out in 1987

Enid: There was a letter from former Refuseniks in your behalf which we circulated all over the world.

Yuli: I received permission on the 14th of December 1988. I was delayed leaving because my Mother-in-law broke her hip.

Bernie: I came in March to welcome you and to meet you in Israel but you arrived later than expected. When I arrived in New York, I spoke to Lana who had spoken to you and said cancel your trip but it was too late.

Yuli: I came on March 11th or 12th. We should return to this talk.. I would like to return to the building of this model of the international campaign in my behalf was developing. We have very good initial information that I will study together with Enid. We’ll begin to remember and then afterwards maybe I’ll ask you some additional questions. Thank you very much!