Interview was taken by Yuli Kosharovsky and prepared for publication by Enid Lynne Wurtman.

February 24, 2004. We are sitting in the apartment of Alexander Lerner in Rehovot. 

Yuli: Alexander Yakovlevich – how old are you?

Alexander: I was born September 7, 1913.

Y: It means that you are today more than 90 years old…. As they say up to 120 and a lot of health to you. Into what kind of family were you born?

A: My father was a pharmacist. He had a drugstore. Later under the Soviet regime, he was working in a drugstore. He was mobilized in June 1941 into the Soviet army and perished at the front.

Y: And your Mother?

A: My Mother was a housewife. She was living with my sister in Odessa and died there.

Y: What is her maiden name?

A: Greenberg.

Y: Do you know your grandmothers and grandfathers?

A: I knew my Grandmother from Greenberg side as I was acquainted with her. I did not know my grandfather as he died before the time I perceived myself. I knew my grandparents quite well and I was very close to them.

Y: Where did they live?

A: They first lived in the village of Sutisky near Vinnitsa. They was a distillery in the village. It was in the Pale of Settlement. My Grandfather was the manager of barrels department in the distillery. Count Gedding owned the plant.

Y: Did your family observe Jewish holidays?

A: Grandma and Grandpa observed all the customs, traditions, holidays and restrictions. My parents weren’t observant. My Father and Mother visited the synagogue only on major holidays. In their daily lives, they were not observant.

Y: This means you were born in an assimilated family and you r parents didn’t raise you in a Jewish spirit/traditions.

A: No, no. They didn’t even think about it. So when I have passed 12 years, they invited a teacher who trained me in Hebrew and prayers and they arranged for me a Bar Mitzvah according to all the rules. They didn’t cut off everything.

Y: Where did you graduate school?

A: In Vinnitsa.

Y: Did you have a good certificate?

A: No.

Y: I was studying indifferently. I was very much interested in sciences beyond the boundaries of the school. Physics I studied according to the book of Perelman Amusing Physics. Chemistry I studied in the book, Chemical Experiments and so on. I have read a lot, was interested in science but not in a school. Studies in the school were organized badly and they didn’t attract me. When and how did you begin your after school education?

A: After 7 yrs of school, – elementary school which I graduated at 12 instead of 14 since I twice jumped up – advanced – skipped, they didn’t take me to technical education because I was too young. At 13 I was accepted to Electo Mechanical – Technical School. After graduating, I received a degree as an electrical technician and was directed to work in a sugar plant. Shortly after that, in accordance with the insistent persuasion of my Mother, I went to Moscow to enroll in an Institute. My wish was the Moscow Energy Institute but I wasn’t accepted because the admissions board decided that my Father, a pharmacist, belonged to the category of traders and not to the proletariat. So I wasn’t admitted to higher education.

Y: In which year was it?

A: In 1932. Then I entered courses which were organized by Alliance of Union of Energoprom (Union of Energy Industries). In these classes they prepared engineers out of technicians. There was a five year plan – pyatiletka and engineering staff was in great demand. I was admitted there. I have studied there for one year until after these courses were closed. Since the decree was announced about the liquidation of all Lilliputian educational institutions. Then we, a group of students of this Energoprom which had been closed, came to Moscow Energy Institute and asked to accept us in the third form. The Director of the Institute, Ivan Dudkin said you know guys we didn’t accept paper money only golden coins. You should pass exams. Depending on how you pass the exams – we’ll accept or reject you – even for the 5th form. We began to take the examination. 1st was math.. Out of 40 students, 4 passed and 36 were rejected. Next was Physics. 3 passed and 1 was rejected. Technology – 2 passed and one was rejected. This way me and my friend were accepted to the third form of Energy Institute which I graduated in 1935. After graduating, I was left in graduate school and in 2 years I defended my dissertation which was unprecedented. There was never a case in the energy Ins. That someone defends
their dissertation ahead of time. Accordingly, I was rewarded by scientific mission and by other bonuses and I was taken as a lecturer to this Institute. First, working on an hourly basis and then as part of the staff. I was teaching a course of mathematic control of electrical motors. It was yet before the war. When the War broke out, one of my students who was building a plant in Siberia, have sent to me an invitation. This plant received American hardware but the team of field engineers didn’t come because of the work. My student knew that I had mastered good English and invited me.

Y: When did you learn English?

A: I took a private teacher. I knew very well German but very soon understood that was not enough. With my own money, I hired a private teacher in English. This way I got to work on this plant.

Y: Did you take part in the war?

A: No.

Y: When did you return to Moscow?

A: 1943 after completing the building of the plant. In Moscow, I had a laboratory of automatization of metallurgic industry. After that I was invited to the Academy of Science whre my former students and primarily member of Academy Petrov were working. He was a Director on an Institute of Automation. He invited me to study for a doctorate and there I defended my doctorate but it happened after the death of Stalin.

Y: When did you feel the complication of Jewish existence in this country?

A: This I began to feel very early when I tried to enter Technical School. Anti-Semities rejected me on exams and I had to find protection in order to be accepted into the Tech, School. So I began to understand it very early and nothing surprised me When the campaign against cosmopolitans began, I was fired from the Institute of Automation. With difficulty I found a job at the Institute of Steel but later, I was fired from there too.

Y: Were you a cosmopolitan?

A: No. I never was interested in politics. I had no ambitions in this field, In 1953, after Stalin, I was resent to the Inst. Of Steel and later into the Inst. Of Problems of Control of the Academy of Science where I received a laboratory.

Y: Let’s make a big step forward. What motivated you on such a decisive step – an application for an exit visa to Israel? As far as I remember you were first person on such a high level to apply.

A: I didn’t follow anyone. I took my decision independently. The main reason most probably was hidden in my early childhood when I was a little kid and took part in the seders of my Grandfather. I have heard there a phrase which was repeated frequently and which fell very deep into my soul. This phrase e was Next year in Jerusalem and I dreamed about this as something unachievable/illusionary/unrealizable but I dreamed maybe some day, after all, I will be in Jerusalem. As soon as I realized the first signs of a possibility it may be possible… I began to look for ways to realize it.

Y: When did you realize these first signs of possibility?

A: In 1964 when they began to give permission in the Baltic States, then I decided that one may try, that it was already not fatal. With Stalin in power, if I would declare about my wish to leave, I wouldn’t live for long. I would quickly be shot.

Y: You belonged to the generation which was so intimidated by Stalin?

A: Yes but I wasn’t intimidated.

Y: How did you succeed in not being intimidated?

A: I’ll tell you. Since the year 1960, I began to go abroad. I was occupied with a very actual problem, Theory of Optimal Control. I was in a sense a pioneer in this direction. I was getting many invitations from abroad. Out of 10 invitations, one I was permitted to implement. I was in France, Italy, U.S., Japan.

Y: And KGB didn’t try to hook you up to their tasks?

A: They tried, of course, but I delicately hinted that I don’t fit to this request and they let me alone… In the free world, I understood that it’s worth any risk. It’s necessary to take risks and break away from the Soviet Union into a free world.

Y: How much time did it take from this understanding to the actual realization?

A: I applied for exit to Israel in October 1971. I understood, of course, they would not let me go immediately but I didn’t expect that I would continue for so long. I didn’t think it would take 16 and a half years.

Y: Those were glorious years…

A: I don’t regret these years. I lived in interesting ways.

Y: When did you come to the idea of seminars? As far as I remember it was the first refusenik seminar.

A: As soon as I got a refusal. After my application, some other scientists followed me. I understood a scientist, like a piano player, or a painter, if he doesn’t work, he loses his qualifications. I decided that the seminar is a necessity.

Y: Were you interested in the dissident movement?

A: No. Soon after the application I met with Andrei Sakharov, created a good relationship with him and we reached an agreement on the division of spheres of activity. We agreed that we will not occupy ourselves with internal questions of the country besides the question of departure and they will support us only in the fields of immigration and nothing more than that… and we will create contacts between our prisoners so that in the places of imprisonment they can help support one another.

Y: Which year did it happen?

A: 1972 or 1973.

Y: When did you begin to work with Polsky, Prestin, Luntz?

A: In 1971 I became acquainted with Slepak and he acquainted me with the rest. My daughter had a friend who was acquainted with a cousin of Slepak. Through them I got to know all the others. I invited Slepak and he came to me and we came to an understanding that he will take part in the seminar. He put me in the circle of the activists.

Y: Were you in contact with the humanitarian seminar of Vitaly Rubin? With Rubin personally I was in contact. He even lectured in my seminar in humanitarian matters – on Jerusalem, Jewish Culture, etc. Can you tell in more details about the great split which began with the secret visit of Mr. Luntz to KGB? (known only to you and Mr. Slepak).

A: I don’t remember details now. I can only say that the split was provoked by the KGB. They were skillfully pulling on the strings so that we quarreled. This is from one side. From another side, it was caused by real differences – what was more important – Jewish Culture or Immigration? I was heading the side which considered the main priority is immigration and Jewish Culture and Religion we will absorb in Israel. Abramovich and Prestin assumed that the main priority is Jewish Culture and Religion and Immigration will be, will not, won’t be.

Y: To my understanding, Prestin and Abramovich assume culture should serve the immigration?

A: Not exactly. They assumed that culture stays in the first place /first priority.

Y: On Sharansky trial, do you remember the article of Lipavsky article.

A: You bet! And how! This article was directed primarily against me. It was surprising that they arrested and sentenced Sharansky and not me.

Y: It was clear that it was directed against you. And we feared that something would happen to you. Sharansky was yet too fresh, too green, too newly arrived…

A: Yes. But I was well supported by Americans. They declared to Soviets if you touch Lerner, all your scientific links will be broken.

Y: Do you have some documents of this period?

A: The only thing that I know exactly in Moscow Soviets gathered a Congress of Political Scientists. American Professor, Dr. Jack Minker demanded from the members of the organizational committee of the Soviet Union that I be invited to this Congress. Soviets at first didn’t want it. And then they were given to understand that in this case not one American will take part in this Congress. Minker sent about 1000 letters to potential participants of this Congress and received 700 answers that they agree to refuse to participate in the Congress if I will not be allowed to take part in it. Then when the Congress began, the Soviets still didn’t let me in. Then we assembled the organization in my apartment round table which I headed.

Y: When Sharansky was arrested – did you have a feeling it was only the beginning and that they would soon come after you? Or you thought the Americans will protect you?

A: I don’t remember exactly now but I didn’t fear too much. I had a feeling that Soviets would let it go… drop it…

Yuli: After that did you step aside for a while?

A: No, absolutely not. Everything continued as before. Every arrival from abroad respectable personality visited my home and I described to him what was going on in the movement. I continued to write an annual reports… Everything continued.

Y: Up to what year was your seminar functioning?

A: Up to 1986… almost to my departure… In December 1987, I got permission. A seminar was finished in the following way. At a time when the seminar session was to begin, 3 KB came and declared that’s it Your seminar is finished! One stood near the door of my apt. and 2 near the entrance of the building. They didn’t let people in. They announced to everyone the seminar is closed.

Y: And then you had to stop the functioning of the seminar?

A: Yes. I had no other choice… because… To fight KGB I couldn’t…

Y: Tell me, please, about your relationship to the neshira problem.

A: My relationship to this was very liberal. I though it was a private question of everyone. On freedom of choice, provised the freedom of behavior.

Y: Even freedom of choice on Israeli visas.

A: Yes – even on Israeli visas – let him go to America. It’s his private matter.

Y: How do you estimate perspective of Jewish national life in the Soviet Union today?

A: I think Jewish national life will continue for a long time. They have there a big enough number of people which are interested in a Jewish way of life and are established there. I don’t want to lose their businesses and their properties. And so it will continue. This life will not languish or develop but we’ll extend/continue…

Y: Jews in the Soviet Union were almost completely assimilated and were living in Russian culture. In other countries, we see the same tendency. What kind of people are we? What keeps us together? We are a very special people which is impossible to liken to any other people. We have a feeling of solidarity based above all on the persecutions and on conviction that only helping each other can we survive. In Israel, many mixed families came to Israel, the Chief Rabbinate [so] that all of them would pass Orthodox Giyur to become Jews. How do you relate to this?

A: I consider such pressure reactionary. I think the estimation of mixed couples is not right, those non-Jews who come here are bigger patriots than Jews. They love Israel for what it should be loved and don’t love it for what it shouldn’t… they estimate the situation in a proper way – sometimes better than Jews who happened to be non-objective. And I think that those mixed couples are very productive and positive part of the contemporary Jewish people. They are assimilating into our people and bringing new blood and fresh thoughts and new ideas.

Y: Who in your point of view should be considered a Jew?

A: Surely one who wants to be a Jew and considers himself a Jew. We should provide open access…

Y: The last question. Why so many people who were fighting with us out there for freedom and democracy upon arriving to Israel became such totalitarian personalities?

A: Those who were not honest out there who demonstrated their allegedly democratic aspirations only because it was popular in the West and for getting political capital.

Y: Thank you, Sir!